Checking my default line - 2 boring hands

topspin · #1 07-22-2005, 11:02 PM

First orbit. Checking my default play. The plan is to keep firing until I meet resistance, and call down if raised. Like?

Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed) handconverter.com

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 6 folds, Hero raises, UTG calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets...

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Same table, different villain. Still same orbit. I run g00t with starting hands.

Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) handconverter.com

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. MP3 posts a blind of $1.
1 fold, Hero raises, 6 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: (3.75 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 4.75 BB

zPro · #2 07-22-2005, 11:15 PM

Hand #1 - I would probably fold the turn if raised.

Hand #2 - I would play this hand like I had TP. Bet flop/Bet turn. Free showdown or fold if he leads river.

topspin · #3 07-22-2005, 11:17 PM

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I would play this hand like I had TP. Bet flop/Bet turn. Free showdown or fold if he leads river.

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When I have top pair I bet the river too.

moot · #4 07-22-2005, 11:35 PM

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When I have top pair I bet the river too.

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Haha, yeah.

The first hand I like so far, though I not sure if I'm willing to spend two more bets calling down if I get raised on the turn.

Second hand's fine. Whether or not I check or bet the turn depends on whether I feel I have a "showdown hand" (this is much more likely when I have an unpaired ace in my hand). I also consider fold equity, of course.

If I'm hoping to show-down something like ace high then I'll bet the turn and check behind on the river (and usually fold if bet into).

Otherwise I'll take your line and check the turn, fold to a a bet on the river (especially against a very passive player) (against an aggressive or crazy one I may still be calling this river).

topspin · #5 07-22-2005, 11:47 PM

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Second hand's fine. Whether or not I check or bet the turn depends on whether I feel I have a "showdown hand" (this is much more likely when I have an unpaired ace in my hand). I also consider fold equity, of course.

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Yeah, with ace-high I'm more likely to bet the turn figuring sometimes I'll be ahead (although this flop is fairly draw free). The main question I had here was if, having checked the turn, I need to call the river in case I induced a bluff.

moot · #6 07-23-2005, 05:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Second hand's fine. Whether or not I check or bet the turn depends on whether I feel I have a "showdown hand" (this is much more likely when I have an unpaired ace in my hand). I also consider fold equity, of course.

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Yeah, with ace-high I'm more likely to bet the turn figuring sometimes I'll be ahead (although this flop is fairly draw free). The main question I had here was if, having checked the turn, I need to call the river in case I induced a bluff.

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By checking the turn you usually resign yourself to folding the river unimproved, if bet in to (though obviously this is read dependent). Otherwise you might as well just bet the turn and take the free river card unimproved (because you'll often get it, and if you don't, and your opponent all of a sudden comes out betting the river, it's almost always safe to fold).

It's basically a trade-off. If you bet the turn that's a bet you'll have to use with a hand that you're not particularly confindent with. But you're usually going to be able to show the hand down for free on the river. On the other hand, if you check the turn, you save that turn bet with your questionable hand, and you might even get a free river anyway (in which you're often going to win with only your high card), but you'll sometimes be forced to second guess yourself if you're bet in to on the river (because your opponent's much more likely to be bluffing than if you'd bet the turn).

And yes, most of these comments assume you have position. Out of position it's a bit trickier.

GrunchCan · #7 07-22-2005, 11:35 PM

In reverse order:

Hand 2, yes. I check with outs on the turn too.

Hand 1, let's ignore the fact that the turn double-paired the board. That's a very uncommon scenario, whereas a paired flop is not. Let's say that on the turn, the board is T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. In this case, your line is standard. But, I question that the standard line here is actually best.

I've never been totally comfortable with the flop 3-bet in this spot. It doesn't make sense that the typical opponent would bet with a 76 (or something) on that flop when you are still going strong. But if you rasie (as the 2+2 default line says you should) and get re-rasied again on the turn brick, pot odds dictate that you call down. But if you knew on the flop that the villan was going to rasie the turn again, wouldn't that make your (edit) six bets going in on the flop & turn -EV?

What if we stop & go? On the flop, hero bets, opponent rasies, Hero calls. On the turn Hero leads. Is it even possible for the opponent in this case to raise again with just a 7? You have diagrammed trips or a big overpair so clearly that even a fish can see it. Even if he can't see it, the stop & go will confuse tourists, and make them think that they are somehow now behind with the 7, and will just call. Only a hand that will beat you will rasie your turn stop & go.

I don't know if my reasoning is sound, but this is something I've been thinking for a while now. Discuss.

topspin · #8 07-22-2005, 11:49 PM

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Hand 1, let's ignore the fact that the turn double-paired the board.

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But this is what IMHO makes the hand more interesting [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

GrunchCan · #9 07-22-2005, 11:53 PM

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Hand 1, let's ignore the fact that the turn double-paired the board.

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But this is what IMHO makes the hand more interesting [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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Oh, hehe. Thought you wanted to talk about boring hands!

In that case, I check the double-paired turn. I'll likely show this hand down as quickly as possible.

teajay · #10 07-22-2005, 11:59 PM

Welcome back grunch...

I've been thinking about this hand too and while I like your argument for the stop 'n go, and think it may be best I have something to bring up.

Hero raised preflop and when villain picks up his flush draw with a paired board decides to raise the flop. Villains thoughts could be along the line that hero may only have overcards and this will earn him a free card to draw to his flush.

If this is the case, 3-betting the flop is nice since we're getting the money in while we're still ahead.

Any flaws?

TJ