Points To Work On This Month

[CrisBrown]

Hi All,

William wrote an excellent post in the SNG forum titled "What I learned this month." This was my reply there, but since I play almost exclusively ring games, I thought I'd post it here as well:

Excellent post, and something all of us should do. I had a TERRIBLE month of April, and in about every way with the sole exception of finally finishing a novel that was five months late. It was as if a light switch flicked off, and every time I got in a pot I was dead. Oh well. So what did I learn?

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Call less. While obviously there are times to call, I realized I'd become way too loose-passive, playing call-and-hope, trying to hit hands. Now, when I see that I'm getting a little sloppy, I take calling out of my game: either bet/raise, or fold.

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Bluff less. This is similar to William's advice about respecting other players' raises/reraises, but it also applies when someone calls a bluff bet. It's fine for Mike Sexton to quote Stu Ungar about "firing a second shell," but most of the time I've found it's throwing good money after bad.

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Play AA, KK, and Ace-Face as "small pot" hands. Most of the time, if I go to the felt on these after the flop, I'm behind. I need to be content to take a small pot unless I have an improved hand (two pair or better).

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Apply the "double-or-half" rule. If I double my buy-in, take a break and change tables, thus banking the profit. If I lose half my buy-in, take a break. Several times this month I had more than doubled my buy-in, only to hang around and end up frittering it away.

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Drop when I'm down. When things are running sour, as they always can at times, drop down in stakes. If it's going to be a cold wave, it may as well be a cheap one.

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Notes. Again, echoing William's thoughts, I now bring up the PokerTracker "Game Time" screen whenever I sit down, and update it whenever someone enters/leaves. This gives excellent information if I've ever played someone, and if I haven't I know to look a little closer and try to get a read on that player.

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Play situations and not just cards. Again, this kinda echoes things William was saying. A good hand may be crap because of a bad situation, and a trash hand may be gold in the right situation. This includes position, stack sizes, prior action, players' styles, who's hot (it doesn't predict the cards, but it's a clue to how they might play a hand), etc.

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Avoid community pots. In some cases, a hand may justify sticking around in a 4+ player pot, but in general I need to avoid these. These kinds of pots basically take bluffing out of the equation, and even an attractive hand like two pair (not top two) may be dead to a "ridiculous" holding. (E.g.: 98s on a J-9-8 flop ... if someone raises me, no matter how unlikely it seems, he probably DOES have QT.)

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Ego doesn't add value. It doesn't matter that my opponent is an absolute idiot. His A7o still beats my KK on an A-Q-8 flop.

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Enjoy the game! If I'm having a miserable time, quit. There's no law that says I have to spend X hrs/day at a poker table.

These are just my personal observations, based on my own experience. Your mileage may vary. What points will you try to work on this month?

Cris

[The Bear]

Cris,

Great post. You're right, we all need more of this type of self-evaluation. And while I agree with most of what you wrote, I think the following comment is counter-productive:

[ QUOTE ]
Apply the "double-or-half" rule. If I double my buy-in, take a break and change tables, thus banking the profit. If I lose half my buy-in, take a break. Several times this month I had more than doubled my buy-in, only to hang around and end up frittering it away.

[/ QUOTE ]

In capped buy-in online games, having a 2xbuyin stack is a large advantage and substantially adds to a skilled player's EV. If you find yourself giving a lot back after doubling through, you should probably resolve to work on your big stack play, not "lock up" a profit. I think you're going to end up really hurting yourself in the long run with this plan.

I hope May is going better than April did.

The Bear

[DcifrThs]

i 100% agree with bear.

We ALL know that any future hand is totally independant of any and all past hands. That is, unless we have reason to assume the shuffle does NOT remove or reduce to nil or negligible the correlation factor between the two hands (i.e. the position of the cards relative to their initial position).

that being said, if you quit a great game b/c you win or lose you're profit or loss then you are really not taking advantage of a great situation.

similarly, if you lose 1/2 at 10-10-20 and move to 5-5-10 you may be putting yourself in a WORSE game with slightly improved folks or better players overall.

that is just silliness.
-Barron

[DcifrThs]

i fully 100% agree with bear.

we ALL know that any future hand is totally independent of any and all prior hands assuming the cards are shuffled enough to make their distribution random or close enough that the correlation factor between hands is nowhere NEAR significant.

therefore, if you're in a great game and double up, you quit? or you're in a great game and lose 1/2 you move to a lower possibly WORSE game?

thats just silly. SILLY i tell you
-Barron

[CrisBrown]

Hi Bear,

I had this same discussion in the SNG forum, and basically what I said was this. Sklansky's (and other experts') advice about staying in a game as long as it's good makes perfect sense if you're playing B&M, where there may only be five or six tables within two hours' driving distance, and moving from one cardroom to another would be huge dead time in your workday. Online, however, there's always another table running, and most of the time, one is just about the same as the next.

When I've hit for three or four sweet pots, and have doubled or trebled my buy-in (because I don't leave when I'm on a rush), does this mean it's a juicy table? Maybe, and maybe not. Maybe I've just caught some good cards and good flops and good situations. Maybe this is the same, very average table where I just folded for an hour ... and it was just "my turn."

But "my turn" isn't going to last forever, and if there's another table that's essentially the same as the one I'm at -- often with mostly the same players, many of whom are multi-tabling -- I don't think there's any sin, nor any theoretical error, in switching tables and banking the profit.

Yes, I agree that a big stack is an advantage at a table. And yes, I need to work on my big stack play. But there comes a point of diminishing returns (perhaps not double, perhaps treble, whatever) where you're probably better off to switch tables.

Cris

[The Bear]

Cris,

You're right. Just because you're winning doesn't mean that the game is necessarily good. I think our disagreement stems from how much power we associate with the big stack. Having played most of my NL on Party (w/ 50xBB buy-ins), I have a very strong affinity for remaining at a table when I have doubled, tripled, quadrupled, etc. my buy-in, even if the players are better than average.

Just my opinion.

Has there ever been a discussion on this forum about the power of a big stack in these capped buy-in games? Furthermore, has there been discussion about passing on marginal edges to preserve a large stack? I've thought quite a bit about these concepts and would be interested to debate them with more serious NL players.

The Bear

[turnipmonster]

yes, we've talked a lot about the advantages and disadvantages of large vs small stacks. my personal view is that big stacks aren't as powerful as most people think, and people playing correctly with short stacks can have a big edge. I have never, ever felt intimidated by a player with a big stack. I have occasionally felt intimidated when I had a big stack.

it all depends on the player, but in general I think it's silly to assume that a large stack is always better, as many people do.

online I don't really think it matters, as the BB/buyin ratio is so small. I've seen people refer to 100x bb as a deep stack. in most live games it's called a minimum buyin [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].
--turnipmonster

[JKratzer]

Since Bear asks,

I value a big stack quite a bit. When playing the NL tables at party, I feel like I can't even get started until I'm up at least half my buy-in. If I see a juicy game ripe for the plucking and need to leave a table to take advantage of it, I usually leave the table that I have the smallest stack in.
I agree with turnip that many people overvalue the big stack, and yes small stacks can be advantageous too, but as long as people continue to insist on giving me their stacks, I'd hate to be rude and not take all of it.

[Fnord]

[ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Avoid community pots. In some cases, a hand may justify sticking around in a 4+ player pot, but in general I need to avoid these. These kinds of pots basically take bluffing out of the equation, and even an attractive hand like two pair (not top two) may be dead to a "ridiculous" holding. (E.g.: 98s on a J-9-8 flop ... if someone raises me, no matter how unlikely it seems, he probably DOES have QT.)


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get this one either. Sure, you're not going to have a 50% or even 40% win rate here, but if you're playing good multi-pot hands against poor players that will pay off a hand more than they should, then go for it. Just need to play these situations very differently than 2-3 way pots.

[CrisBrown]

Hi Fnord,

That's kinda what I meant with "there are some hands that justify sticking around in a 4- or 5-way pot." Obviously, in some situations, I've got to play the hand, because I have the nuts or something very close to it. But I also have to remember that, in a big community pot, it is more likely that someone DOES have the nuts -- simply because there are more players involved -- and if it looks as if that's happened, I need to not go broke on a second-best hand. That's all I really meant here.

Cris