An online non-fold

[Kevin J]

Here's one I wanted to lay down, but didn't only because it seemed too weak against an unkown online opponent.

UTG raised and got 1 caller. I called from the bb with QQ.

The flop came J43 all spades (I have the Qs). I bet, UTG raised, 3rd guy cold-calls, I call.

The turn was an off 7. I checked, UTG bet and the 3rd guy called.

I sometimes wrongly give people credit for playing reasonable. If this was the case here, I thought the 3rd likely had the As. If this was so, then UTG isn't likely to be betting a draw. If THIS was the case, then realistically I can only beat a pair of jacks. I thought I should fold.

But this was online and I had the Qs, so I called. The river was a red 3 leaving me with an overpair. I checked, UTG bet, 3rd guy folded and I called. I lost to Ac,Ad. I kinda suspected that, KK, or JJ. Was this a terribly played hand? How much will failing to make a read like this cost me in the long run? Thanks.

[William Jockusch]

You have to call that one down. The thing that will cost you money is when you make that read, then discover that UTG had Th 6c, and the caller had Jh 9d.

[Kevin J]

I agree with you. Paying off is a necessary evil in poker and yes... I realize making too many incorrect folds can be very costly. I'm just trying to be the devil's advocate.

It's not enough for my hand to be best on the this flop, but it has to FINISH best. Any ace, king, queen, any diamond, as well as some straight cards might ruin my hand. Add to this that I might already be way behind and I think it's reasonable to at least consider folding.

I firmly believe that the biggest reason why I don't do as well online as I do live, is my inability to make reads with the same degree of accuracy. Both when it comes to folding and when it comes to NOT folding. This is why I've cut back to only 2 tables online. Thanks for your input.

[mike l.]

if you wouldve 3 bet preflop as you shouldve then this hand mightve played out easier.

i dont think you can fold here. like pretty much no way.

[Kevin J]

Had I any info that UTG would raise light, I definitely would've 3 bet pre-flop. But I'm not one who feels the need to squeeze value from a situation where there might not be any. Even so...

How would the hand have played any easier? I'd still bet the flop and have gotten raised. Are you saying that I now have an easier fold, since I showed pre-flop strength? Maybe so, but the pot is now also bigger meaning I don't think you'd have an easier time folding.

[Stork]

Because UTG would probably cap pre-flop, which, followed by his postflop strengh, might make your laydown easier.

[Kevin J]

Well maybe this is where my biggest problem in poker lies and where I play the poorest.

If I DID 3-bet pre-flop, and UTG DID cap it, I'd now be LESS likely to fold my overpair. Because well, people DO get out of line pre-flop. They also could cap with AK and some other hands that don't beat queens. Now the pot is so much bigger. If I'm gonna be wrong, I'd rather be wrong in a smaller pot than in a large one where people are even more apt to get out of line and try to out-play one another.

[mike l.]

"Had I any info that UTG would raise light,"

you should assume they play too loose and too aggressive until they prove to you repeatedly that they dont. only then can you start to adjust from correct play. and correct play is to 3 bet the bb 3rd nut starting hand against an utg party raiser.

[DanZ]

If your opponents are indeed too loose and aggressive, why on earth would you want to tip them off that you likely have a premium hand? The only benefit is to extract an extra fraction of a big bet before the flop. Against such players, the excess action you may get later has to be worth a lot more.

Players who refuse to give excess action later are the ones you must try to extract from early, not players who will throw chips in until you wave a stop sign.

Dan Z.

[Rube]

[ QUOTE ]
Had I any info that UTG would raise light, I definitely would've 3 bet pre-flop. But I'm not one who feels the need to squeeze value from a situation where there might not be any.

[/ QUOTE ]

What range of hands do you normally put unknown online UTG raisers on?

Throw in the cold caller, and you can even 3-bet even the rockiest of UTG rocks profitably.