10-20: A questionable TT hand

JTG51 · #1 12-12-2002, 04:28 PM

I'm in LP with T [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] . A poor, loose aggressive player in EP opens for a raise. I 3 bet, both blinds call as does EP. SB is a total unknown to me.

Flop: Q [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]

Blinds check, EP bets and I raise. SB calls 2 cold, BB folds.

Turn: [Q [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]] T [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]

Checked to me, I bet, both call.

River: [Q [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]] 2 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]

SB bets, EP calls, I call.

Thoughts?

Ginogino · #2 12-12-2002, 04:40 PM

JTG51:
It's easy to believe that you're ahead until the river. When SB lead-bets into 2 opponents after check-calling up to then, I think you have to figure SB's hand was improved in a big way by the river card (the 2c). And that pretty much means a flush -- but it's worth calling to be sure and to find out what kind of hand SB will check-call with preflop, on the flop and on the turn. I'd expect EP to turn up with either one or possibly two pairs.

Gino

mikelow · #3 12-12-2002, 04:47 PM

Not much to say, but I like your overcall on the river. On the turn, it looks like SB is on a draw, but you have too much to fold.

nykenny · #4 12-12-2002, 05:17 PM

my guess is that you are beat by SB, AcXc or something like KcJc, KcTc... in the live ring game where I normally play, this is prolly a very easy river laydown.

astroglide · #5 12-12-2002, 05:29 PM

i think anybody that calls a set an easy laydown here needs to get their head examined :|

JTG51 · #6 12-13-2002, 12:58 AM

Do you really think it's ever easy to fold a set for 1 bet on the river? Are your opponents that straight forward? I agree that I'm probably beaten here, but I don't think it's an easy fold.

I think I remember a 2+2 poster (possibly Clarkmeister?) saying that if you never fold a set you probably aren't too far from optimal play. I've always tended to agree with that, only folding sets in the most obvious circumstances.

cybertilt · #7 12-13-2002, 10:47 AM

I agree, you are getting 12x1 odds, you have to make a crying call here. The real problem I have with the whole hand is I can't believe our hero raised the flop. You are getting yourself into bad positions raising middle pairs when there is a two flush, an over card, and a coordinated board (which if someone has JT your down to one out not two).

JTG51 · #8 12-13-2002, 01:57 PM

I'm surprised you are the first one to comment on the flop play, since I thought it was questionable also. I thought the flop and river decisions were equally questionable.

leon · #9 12-13-2002, 08:34 AM

You do not lay down here. Period. EP's call means nothing to me here given JTG's read. And a set should VERY RARELY be laid down for one bet on the river, in a pot this size, with an obvious scare card. As a wise poster once said, "try and find excuses to fold early, and find excuses to call late". As another one said, "you don't win money in limit hold em by making great laydowns on the river".

Perhaps I'm acutely aware of this b/c of something that happened to me last night. I open raise in MP with AJ, one late cold caller, SB calls. Three to the flop of J103, two diamonds. I bet, both call.

Turn- K. I bet, both call.

River- A of diamonds. Board is J103KA, three diamonds, both have been calling the whole way. SB bets, I confidently muck, and late guy calls. SB has 10K (?) and late has a WEAK ace. Was I kicking myself? Yes. I'm not saying I wouldn't lay it down again under similar circumstances, but people can always surprise you.

Leon

Ulysses · #10 12-12-2002, 06:13 PM

SB calls 2+ cold pre-flop, 2 cold on the flop, calls the turn, then bets the river. Obviously, this smells like Ac[Big]c. But there's a hope it's something like AcKs that missed both backdoors and is betting out on the scare card. Or something like AQ or 99.

I think you're in second place, but you have to overcall here.