I have trouble OOP against LAGs

TheHammer24 · #1 09-14-2005, 01:14 AM

Villian is 40/9/2 His pfr was autoraise if that changes your opinion.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

River: (8.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 9.75 BB

This one really bothers me. I generally have trouble against these kind of opponents where their raise could mean anything. I am looking on advice, not just in this particular hand, but this situation in general. Fair hand OOP against a loose and aggressive opponent. Would c/c the whole way be better? In the hand as played was folding the river good or bad?

SackUp · #2 09-14-2005, 01:24 AM

I play the flop the same way, but I am probably folding the turn.

His pfr is very high, but is he 3betting as much as he is just raising?

Also, given that he didn't bat an eye at your c/r on the flop I don't know that there is much merit in continuing past the turn unless you have a read on him that he will way overplay hands postflop. His aggression is high but not out of control.

The pot is fairly large but your hand is not that strong and he has not slowed up from the start. I don't think you are winning enough here to make calling down profitable unless you really have a rock solid read on this guy as a maniac.

On another point. Say you c/r the flop and he just calls and then he raises your bet on the turn, I'm folding this on the turn as well.

Sarge85 · #3 09-14-2005, 01:59 AM

If he has manical tendancies - i think your river fold sucks.

You can't play a maniac hard on the flop or PF, and then back down when you have a hand worth a showdown.

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

TheHammer24 · #4 09-14-2005, 11:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If he has manical tendancies - i think your river fold sucks.

You can't play a maniac hard on the flop or PF, and then back down when you have a hand worth a showdown.

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I think playing the hand as I did, I have to call the river.

This kind of hand plauges me. First, is the flop c/r standard against this aggressive of a player? Do I call down unless the board goes to hell if he three bets it?

Secondly, let's assume that villian will 3-bet any c/r and raise any donk bet. Playing the same board, what becomes the correct line?

#5 09-14-2005, 11:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he has manical tendancies - i think your river fold sucks.

You can't play a maniac hard on the flop or PF, and then back down when you have a hand worth a showdown.

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I think playing the hand as I did, I have to call the river.

This kind of hand plauges me. First, is the flop c/r standard against this aggressive of a player? Do I call down unless the board goes to hell if he three bets it?

Secondly, let's assume that villian will 3-bet any c/r and raise any donk bet. Playing the same board, what becomes the correct line?

[/ QUOTE ]
Headsup against a superaggressive opponent your best strategy is to just check and call the whole way. By checking and calling you induce him to bluff or bet weaker hands then you, and you can never get outplayed if you just check and call. And when you do have the best hand, you never miss out on a bet anyways since the villain will always bet your hand for you. Against an aggressive opponent like this, checking and calling takes away all his powers.

TheHammer24 · #6 09-14-2005, 11:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he has manical tendancies - i think your river fold sucks.

You can't play a maniac hard on the flop or PF, and then back down when you have a hand worth a showdown.

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I think playing the hand as I did, I have to call the river.

This kind of hand plauges me. First, is the flop c/r standard against this aggressive of a player? Do I call down unless the board goes to hell if he three bets it?

Secondly, let's assume that villian will 3-bet any c/r and raise any donk bet. Playing the same board, what becomes the correct line?

[/ QUOTE ]
Headsup against a superaggressive opponent your best strategy is to just check and call the whole way. By checking and calling you induce him to bluff or bet weaker hands then you, and you can never get outplayed if you just check and call. And when you do have the best hand, you never miss out on a bet anyways since the villain will always bet your hand for you. Against an aggressive opponent like this, checking and calling takes away all his powers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand this logic, but I'm apprehensive to agree with it in this case, because it is not WA/WB, we both a fair about of out if the other is ahead. Does it still apply?

#7 09-14-2005, 02:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he has manical tendancies - i think your river fold sucks.

You can't play a maniac hard on the flop or PF, and then back down when you have a hand worth a showdown.

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I think playing the hand as I did, I have to call the river.

This kind of hand plauges me. First, is the flop c/r standard against this aggressive of a player? Do I call down unless the board goes to hell if he three bets it?

Secondly, let's assume that villian will 3-bet any c/r and raise any donk bet. Playing the same board, what becomes the correct line?

[/ QUOTE ]
Headsup against a superaggressive opponent your best strategy is to just check and call the whole way. By checking and calling you induce him to bluff or bet weaker hands then you, and you can never get outplayed if you just check and call. And when you do have the best hand, you never miss out on a bet anyways since the villain will always bet your hand for you. Against an aggressive opponent like this, checking and calling takes away all his powers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand this logic, but I'm apprehensive to agree with it in this case, because it is not WA/WB, we both a fair about of out if the other is ahead. Does it still apply?

[/ QUOTE ]
yes this still applies even though you are not in a WA/WB scenario. The key to this problem is that you have a somewhat marginal hand(middle pair) that you think might be best and your against a super aggressive opponent. Since you think you may be best you want to get to the showdown as cheaply as possible, and youre not worried about free cards since the super aggressive player will always bet when checked to. By checking and calling you induce your aggressive opponent to bluff or bet a weaker hand than you, and you never allow him the chance to push you off a better hand. This concept is very import especially when it comes to online play where you will encounter these type of opponents at .50-1.00 and 100-200. Heres an good example of a hand I played. I openraised preflop in the 8 seat with 77, a super aggressive player just called on the button and both blinds folded. The flop came out K66. I bet and he called. The turn was a T making the board K66T, I checked, he bet, I called. The river was a Queen making the board K66TQ, I checked he bet I called. He showed A2o and my hand was good. Do you see why I check called the turn? It was becuz I had a marginal hand that may be best so I wanted to see a showdown, and I didnt care about giving him a free card with my vulnerable holding cuz I knew he would bet if i checked. Lastly by checking, he could never bluff raise me on the turn and put me in a tough spot where I could possibly make a pot size mistake. These situations come up all the time vs tricky aggressive opponents online, and it is vital for your bankroll to recognize them.

#8 09-14-2005, 11:34 AM

you're not "taking away all his poweres". if you check and call the whole way you are giving him the option to take free cards when he pleases. but this isn't so bad because he won't take them - he'll bet way too much even when he's behind.

#9 09-14-2005, 02:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
you're not "taking away all his poweres". if you check and call the whole way you are giving him the option to take free cards when he pleases. but this isn't so bad because he won't take them - he'll bet way too much even when he's behind.

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Your statement is exactly why I check and call all the way vs a maniac. And what I mean by "checking and calling takes away all the aggressors powers" is that you can never get outplayed when you check and call. And many super aggressive people can only make money when they pressure their opponents off better hands since most of the time a super aggressive player wont have much. When ever you have a marginal hand, in a heads up situation, that you think has a good chance of being best, it should be routine to just check and call all the way vs these type of players. Not only does this strategy encompass the lowest risk, it actually makes the most money too.

Fat Nicky · #10 09-14-2005, 11:32 AM

Yes, villains stats indicate that he is loose and aggressive, but he is far from a maniac. I think you have to take a good amount of stock in his pre-flop 3-bet as his PFR is only 9 (far from over aggressive).

The flop is kind of tricky as we have middle pair and a gutshot. We can pretty much expect a raise everytime if we bet out, so I think I dig a flop c/r. After getting 3-bet, I'm convinced we are behind at the moment.

We have between 4 and 9 outs on the turn, so we have the odds to see the river.

I'd fold the river, as there is hardly anything in the villains range of hands that we beat.