25/50 Deep Stack Tricky Hand

theBruiser500 · #1 06-30-2005, 09:59 PM

5 handed, button raises he is LAG, he used to play bad but IMO has been playing better ltaely, this is deerchaser21, me and him both have 15k. SB calls, he is weak, I have QQ and reraise pot. i know i can just call but deerchaseer will call me with many weaker hands here and i feel like i would be "declining the challenge" if i don't reraise. so i reraise he calls

i have black queens, flop is 4c 7h jc, i bet 1300 into 1550 pot he calls. i feel like he is LAG and might be calling prefop or on the flop just to outplay me, turn is 7c, what now? i check, he bets pot of 4400 or something i fold

Ulysses · #2 06-30-2005, 10:04 PM

If you're going to make that fold, don't reraise pre-flop.

chuddo · #3 06-30-2005, 10:14 PM

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If you're going to make that fold, don't reraise pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

hate to do the passe quoting "what he said", but this was going to be the first thing i was going to reply with.

theBruiser500 · #4 06-30-2005, 10:09 PM

also for what it's worth i would say not only is he playing better, but he's outplaying me with his LAG style

greg nice · #5 06-30-2005, 11:11 PM

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i know i can just call but deerchaseer will call me with many weaker hands here and i feel like i would be "declining the challenge" if i don't reraise.

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surely you see how silly this is in retrospect. all you do is define your hand to a LAG who is outplaying you and to top it off he has position.

as played i think you should fire again on turn.

cero_z · #6 06-30-2005, 11:42 PM

Hi greg,

[ QUOTE ]
surely you see how silly this is in retrospect. all you do is define your hand to a LAG who is outplaying you and to top it off he has position.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure which part you think is silly, but I would reraise here every time against a LAG. They're 5-handed, so you ought to be reraising with a lot of hands when the button opens the pot and you're in the blinds; might as well fire with legit hands as well. But maybe you were just saying Bruiser's reasoning (not wanting to "decline the challenge") was bad. I'm not sure that's bad either, not in the macho sense, but in the sense of showing him your blinds are not to be [censored] with without consequence.

Bruiser's mistake, IMO, was giving up on a big pot with an overpair and flush draw vs. a guy who runs him over.

Bruiser, you are obviously very successful with your style; we play very differently, but I'm interested in your thought process. Please explain to me how you can lay this down. Why is he betting 4400 if he has a flush? Don't you think he's trying to protect top pair or bluffing you at least twice as often as he is betting a small flush or trips here (in which case you have 7 outs)? I'm assuming a boat is out of the question. What else beats you?

aggie · #7 07-01-2005, 12:02 AM

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I'm not sure which part you think is silly, but I would reraise here every time against a LAG.

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Is reraising here as automatic as you make it seem?

With 100 BB stacks i'm reraising here everytime also as well as with many other hands. But when the stacks are so large i don't think think this is so automatic. Pot control and position are much bigger considerations with stacks so deep. I'm reraising may fewer hands (but still liberally protecting my blinds by calling often). I'm often slowplaying / trapping LAG's with hands like QQ out of position while i'm raising almost any 2 on the button.

Anyway, this is more a style issue. Is my philosophy -EV?

greg nice · #8 07-01-2005, 12:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure which part you think is silly, but I would reraise here every time against a LAG. They're 5-handed, so you ought to be reraising with a lot of hands when the button opens the pot and you're in the blinds; might as well fire with legit hands as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

its more of a case of how the game has been playing up to this point. if the game is playing as you would play it, where many pots are getting reraised pre, then sure reraise with both good and bad hands. im thinking that if this is how the game was playing, bruiser wouldve mentioned it.

what i was assuming is that a reraise is an infrequent occurance, and if thats the case then everyone (including the thinking lag) is gonna know that all they have to do is move you off of one pair. and what do you know, a perfect scare card comes for that job.

theBruiser500 · #9 07-02-2005, 01:27 AM

"
Bruiser, you are obviously very successful with your style; we play very differently, but I'm interested in your thought process. Please explain to me how you can lay this down. Why is he betting 4400 if he has a flush? Don't you think he's trying to protect top pair or bluffing you at least twice as often as he is betting a small flush or trips here (in which case you have 7 outs)? I'm assuming a boat is out of the question. What else beats you? "

Why is a boat out of the quesiotn here? He could have a boat or a flush, or other hands. My style btw doesn't work well against deerchaser or similar players but I can tell you what was running through my head when I folded. Mainly I was upset with myself on how I played this hand cause I reraised preflop and as Diablo and others say I can't reraise it preflop and then play it post flop this way (i agree, how would you play it though diablo?)... I should have just claled preflop because frankly, i folded to reduce variance and because of bankroll considerations.

also it's not just beating him 1 out of 3 times because pot is 8k but after i call i'll have another 8k left or whatever, something like that so if i go all in i'll have to put in 12k or someting to win that 8k pot, whatever, the stack sizes were weird and i had no courage.

cero_z · #10 07-02-2005, 11:58 PM

Hi Bruiser,

[ QUOTE ]
Why is a boat out of the quesiotn here? He could have a boat or a flush, or other hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was assuming it was very unlikely because if he's been running you over and you've been running away, he probably wouldn't bet so much with a hand you were almost certainly near-dead to. But at the time, I didn't know this:

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You just typed in the chat to 'hulk17' that you thought he was bluffing in a sizeable pot but "didn't have the heart to call down".

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This seems key to me; if he's a good player and he believes you were telling the truth in that chat, then he should be looking to play a good hand strongly against you, since presumably you'll be looking to find the heart next time. I don't think this kind of chat will help you at all, btw; it's a little too subtle, and will probably cause him to tighten up his bluffing frequency just a tad (very bad), while becoming more alert in hands against you (bad).

I watched this player for a while last night after reading your post, and I really can't believe that folding could've been right. If he has a flush, you have at least 4 outs, and maybe 11. If he has trips, you have 11. If he has a boat, you have 2 or 4. Add this to the probability that you are currently ahead (at least 66% in my mind), and you have a clear all-in IMO.