|
|
|
|
#1
10-22-2004, 05:08 AM
|
|||
|
|||
The Failure Of Logic
A man is busy looting a house, in the night, when the householder comes down from his bedroom and confronts him. The householder is armed and a struggle ensues. The burglar kills the householder. The wife and child of the householder come downstairs and stare horrified at the burglar.
This occurs in a US state which executes for felony murder. What is the logical thing for the burglar to do? It is to kill both mother and child in order to facilitate his escape and minimize his chance of capture. You cannot be executed twice and once the burglar has killed the householder in the heat of the moment then the coldblooded killing of mother and child becomes a necessity. So much for logic, you followers of logic. 
|
|
#3
10-22-2004, 10:12 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: The Failure Of Logic
[ QUOTE ]
Do you think this shows that logic is flawed or that the system is flawed? [/ QUOTE ] The thought experiment I presented was to show that those who are in love with logic (and opposed to religion) should not be so smug because logic can lead to all sorts of terrible consequences. Hitler was a logician of the finest order. His logic shocked the world.
|
|
#4
10-22-2004, 10:39 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: The Failure Of Logic
[ QUOTE ]
The thought experiment I presented was to show that those who are in love with logic (and opposed to religion) should not be so smug because logic can lead to all sorts of terrible consequences. Hitler was a logician of the finest order. His logic shocked the world. [/ QUOTE ] Hitler was not a logician of any order, let alone the highest. ... and the terrible consequences in your thought experiment are not caused by logic. chez
|
|
#5
10-22-2004, 10:42 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: The Failure Of Logic
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Do you think this shows that logic is flawed or that the system is flawed? [/ QUOTE ] The thought experiment I presented was to show that those who are in love with logic (and opposed to religion) should not be so smug because logic can lead to all sorts of terrible consequences. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, it can. So can electricity, automobiles, fire, and any number of things that are highly important to humanity. Anything can be misused, often with tragic consequences. And actually, the burglar failed in a logical sense by choosing crime over being a productive member of society. Had he taken the long view, and been willing to put in the effort to make an honest living, he would never have been confronted by the choice you posit (which has indeed been played out many times in real life). [ QUOTE ] Hitler was a logician of the finest order. His logic shocked the world. [/ QUOTE ] Perhaps. But if you read his writings, you'll also find that he was a religious fruitcake. He used God to justify everything he did, as many religious people do. My problem with religion is not its existence, but rather its followers trying to force it down everyone else's throats and, in some cases, using it to grab power and/or justify all manner of horror. I don't care what people believe, so long as they play nice and leave those of us who don't want it alone. There are many conceptions of God. Only one, at most, can be right. So far as I have seen, there is nothing that proves that one is right and the others wrong; similar arguments are made by adherents of different faiths, telling us that theirs is The Truth(tm). From that, I conclude that it is unlikely that any of them are. If God is just and benevolent, I don't see how he can demand that we figure out which version to believe in, and condemn us for eternity if we guess wrong. Because that's all it is, a guess. -Mike
|
|
#6
10-22-2004, 11:49 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: The Failure Of Logic
[ QUOTE ]
Because that's all it is, a guess. [/ QUOTE ] Let's say a man is on trial for his life, and you are foreman of the jury. He's accused of brutally raping and murdering a child. Some witnesses say one thing, some another. What do you do?
|
|
#7
10-22-2004, 01:27 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: The Failure Of Logic
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Because that's all it is, a guess. [/ QUOTE ] Let's say a man is on trial for his life, and you are foreman of the jury. He's accused of brutally raping and murdering a child. Some witnesses say one thing, some another. What do you do? [/ QUOTE ] If the evidence demonstrates that he's guilty beyond a reasonable doubt (not beyond any doubt, mind you, just a reasonable one), I vote guilty. If not, I vote not guilty. If the witnesses' testimony is the only available evidence, and I have no reason to believe that those testifying in favor of the accused are lying, then I have to vote not guilty; in the US legal system, defendants are presumed innocent until proven guilty (at least, that's the ideal). OTOH, I do oppose the death penalty for various reasons, and probably wouldn't get picked for the jury in the first place because of that. At any rate, what's your point? -Mike
|
|
#8
10-22-2004, 10:57 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: The Failure Of Logic
[ QUOTE ]
The thought experiment I presented was to show that those who are in love with logic (and opposed to religion) should not be so smug because logic can lead to all sorts of terrible consequences. [/ QUOTE ] The death penalty is illogical because it is not an effective deterrent, and a small % of innocent people, are wrongly executed. Also, it’s illogical to believe there is a perfect set of laws that can be implemented to eliminate murder. Btw, faith completely failed the victims here. This is because the burglar turned murderer didn’t believe he would receive punishment from God or the appropriate deity for committing his sins, or he simply doesn’t care or doesn’t believe in religion.
|
|
#9
10-22-2004, 11:36 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: The Failure Of Logic
[ QUOTE ]
Btw, faith completely failed the victims here. This is because the burglar turned murderer didn’t believe.. [/ QUOTE ] Sorry, but that's simply untrue and an illogical statement. Do you define "faith" as a sort of force-field that believers have against the world? That's not how THEY define it.
|
|
#10
10-23-2004, 12:55 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: The Failure Of Logic
[ QUOTE ]
The thought experiment I presented was to show that those who are in love with logic (and opposed to religion) should not be so smug because logic can lead to all sorts of terrible consequences. Hitler was a logician of the finest order. His logic shocked the world. [/ QUOTE ] Appropriately, you picked a terribly bad example with which to make your point. You neither showed the fallibilty of logic nor how faith would have helped anything. This was a "thought experiment" with seemingly no thought put into it whatever. And if you deride logic so much, do you regret that you live in a home or drive a car that wasn't built by people "just winging it" or getting their inspiration for sticking the pieces together directly from the word of god without the intervention of logic? It would be hard to guess from your post, but even religious people can be quite logical an awful lot of the time, and would find it by and large foolish to scoff at logic. You don't have to live without logic to be religious, or be non-religious to live with it. Anybody remember the movie "Heat" with DeNiro and Val Kilmer and Ashley Judd? There's a great scene toward the beginning of the film where they're robbing an armored car and a psycho helper the robbery gang hired just for that job turns out to be a psycho and turns their robbery into the murder of a guard. They're really pissed at him, but what can they do? The Val Kilmer character looks over at DeNiro after the gunning of the guard, DeNiro nods, and then they execute the rest of the guards on the spot. Three murders costs the same as one in the eyes of the state, and if one is guilty, all are guilty. So they have no practical choice but to kill everyone. Sad and cruel logic, but practical and appropriate. Everyone was trapped in the same web, and the result was inescapable.
|
 |
|
|
Hybrid Mode
