I fold TPTK

PokerBob · #1 11-19-2005, 06:19 AM

Canterbury 15/30 9 handed
Villain here is a bit loose, but is not a LAG. I have never seen him raise a trash hand, although he is a typical retard and will limp lots of poop.

I raise UTG with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 1 donkey folds, villain 3-bets, 1 donkey folds, a guy wearing an Indiana Jones hat CC's 3 bets, folds back to me and I call.

Flop 3 ways: Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
I donk bet, villain raises, Indiana folds, I call.

Turn HU: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
I check, villain bets, I fold.

DeathDonkey · #2 11-19-2005, 06:22 AM

I think check/calling twice and then deciding what to do on the river is much better. It really doesn't matter what Indiana Jones does so long as he doesn't raise.

-DeathDonkey

PokerBob · #3 11-19-2005, 06:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think check/calling twice and then deciding what to do on the river is much better. It really doesn't matter what Indiana Jones does so long as he doesn't raise.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Indiana folded to villain's flop raise.

DeathDonkey · #4 11-19-2005, 06:32 AM

Noted, I'm just saying if you check, and the decent guy bets, and Indiana calls, it doesn't change anything for me and I still plan on check/calling til the river and then deciding.

-DeathDonkey

#5 11-19-2005, 05:01 PM

If your going to put the villain on AA or KK you should fold to the 3 bet preflop... You caught a flop that beats every hand but two. People will reraise w/ JJ or TT or AK preflop and raise you when you bet into them with this flop. I like the bet on the flop. You can either go the check call route or the route discussed ealrier about 3 betting the flop and if it gets capped c/c if he only calls bet the whole way. A reraise preflop doesn't always mean AA or KK.

DeathDonkey · #6 11-19-2005, 05:46 PM

Thank you but I am aware we are not always losing on this flop. However, if we are ahead, I can't really think of any hands I would like to fold, except a flush draw which isn't folding no matter what we do.

-DeathDonkey

#7 11-19-2005, 06:45 AM

I really hate your line here Bob. You played the flop perfectly by betting into the raiser to force the other guy out, now that youve achieved your objective, theres nothing wrong with check/calling your hand all the way down and seeing if it is good. Are you that positive that the villain wont raise this flop with AsKs,AQ,JJ,TT or just AK in general since it is the most overplayed hand in the game? I certainly am not that positive. It is true that you may be an underdog to have the best hand here but you are getting 7.25-2 to call this down, I dont really think you are that big of an underdog, plus even the times the villian has AA,KK or QQ, you will still have 5 outs 60% of the time against this range and when he has AA you will still get lucky 4% of the time by hitting a Q on the river, all these small percentages add up. So when you combine the many times you still have the best hand here with the times you dont have the best hand but get lucky on the river, folding this turn given the size of the pot is very bad IMO.

DeathDonkey · #8 11-19-2005, 06:56 AM

Hi Westley,

Is this pot really big enough we need to bet into the preflop raiser and actually want him to raise? I don't think so. I also think with Pokerbob's read, when this guy does raise the flop, we are in quite a bit of trouble.

-DeathDonkey

#9 11-19-2005, 03:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Westley,

Is this pot really big enough we need to bet into the preflop raiser and actually want him to raise? I don't think so. I also think with Pokerbob's read, when this guy does raise the flop, we are in quite a bit of trouble.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]
I can not say this point strongly enough, whenever you are in a 3 way raised pot and the preflop aggressor is directly on your left, it is absolutely critical that you bet into him whenever you flop a top/pair type hand, you should also be betting all your strong draws(flushdraws/OESD's) into the raiser if you think theres a chance the raiser may not have a hand yet. Even with a flushdraw/OESD you do better if you get the pot heads up since this will increase your chance of winning on the turn/river if you spike a pair. This concept is exetremely important, if anyone makes a habit of checking the to raiser with legitimate hands like top pair or a flushdraw/OESD in 3 way pots when the raiser is directly on their left, they are giving up way too much. I know that Bob has a read here, but his read is not that strong, he didnt come out and say "I know this guy will only reraise me with Queens or above"

tessarji · #10 11-19-2005, 06:53 AM

My gut feeling is that folding here is wrong. Math follows, via pokerstove.

Villain's Hand:

AA 3 ways,
KK 6 ways,
QQ 1 way
JJ 6 ways
AK 12 ways
AQ 6 ways

I think this is an appropriately tight range. Pokerstove says:

1,496 games 0.005 secs 299,200 games/sec

Board: Qs 7s 4d 7h

Player: equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Villain: 39.6390 % 30.82% 08.82% { JJ+, AQs+, AQo+ }
PokerBob: 60.3610 % 51.54% 08.82% { AcQc }

You need to call (probably) 2 bets on turn and river to showdown. Final pot odds are 11:2, or 5.5:1.

Obviously your 'tilt' that this player has you beat is based on the flop raise, but I think you will win or chop enough to make this worth a call.