Who are these morons?

John White · #1 10-03-2004, 04:25 AM

According to pokertracker, I'm finally a smiley-face. VP$IP at 22% and falling. Now for aggression....

PokerRoom 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. MP1 posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP1 (poster) checks, Hero raises, MP3 3-bets, 2 folds, SB caps, 1 fold, UTG folds, MP1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (18 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, MP1 calls, Hero raises, MP3 3-bets, SB caps, MP1 folds, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (15.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

River: (18.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 21.50 BB
Main Pot: 21.50 BB, between Hero, MP3 and SB.

Ajax410 · #2 10-03-2004, 04:29 AM

Seems to me like your top pair is beat. I'm guessing you're up against JJ-AA again here, especially with capped betting pre-flop. That having been said, I call down and make him show me the cards.

If the betting is capped PF and I'm holding AQs, I am really only happy to see some kind of strong draw - there is a chance of domination if you hit your ace, and a chance of an overpair if you hit your queen.

John White · #3 10-03-2004, 07:01 AM

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If the betting is capped PF and I'm holding AQs, I am really only happy to see some kind of strong draw - there is a chance of domination if you hit your ace, and a chance of an overpair if you hit your queen.

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What kind of actions do you translate this to? Raise AQs, but fold if it gets capped behind you?

Raise w/top pair top kicker, but fold if it gets capped behind you?

Rudbaeck · #4 10-03-2004, 07:20 AM

No, calling down is correct. You played it fine.

Fiddler · #5 10-03-2004, 07:28 AM

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Raise w/top pair top kicker, but fold if it gets capped behind you?

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I think I would fold when it is 2 back to me on the flop. Assuming they aren't maniacs... what are you ahead of that is worth a pre-flop and flop cap? AK of clubs?

Rudbaeck · #6 10-03-2004, 09:51 AM

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Raise w/top pair top kicker, but fold if it gets capped behind you?

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I think I would fold when it is 2 back to me on the flop. Assuming they aren't maniacs... what are you ahead of that is worth a pre-flop and flop cap? AK of clubs?

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Hero has 5 outs, though most of them are dirty. All aces are dirty if someone has KT, and the Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] isn't pretty either. Still, there are 28 sb when it's 2 to Hero, so it's 14:1 on the call. And even if Hero makes his hand on the turn anyone with two clubs has a strong redraw.

I'm still leaning towards calling, unless someone with a low agg factor is doing some of that raising.

Fiddler · #7 10-03-2004, 11:53 AM

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Hero has 5 outs, though most of them are dirty. All aces are dirty if someone has KT, and the Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] isn't pretty either. Still, there are 28 sb when it's 2 to Hero, so it's 14:1 on the call. And even if Hero makes his hand on the turn anyone with two clubs has a strong redraw.

I'm still leaning towards calling, unless someone with a low agg factor is doing some of that raising.

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After that action there is no way he has five outs. I would say he has less than three outs. Maybe I'm too pessimistic but I would only call if I had a read that one of the others is overly aggressive or if the board was three toned.

Ajax410 · #8 10-03-2004, 05:38 PM

I stay in with AQs to see the flop unless I have a read on the raiser as an absolute rock. Though it is not as draw-happy to a straight, AQs is going to give you legit draws to both the nut straight and nut flush. That having been said, with the type of action that is going on here, I am REALLY not happy to see this flop. At this point, and maybe this is really passive play on my part, I am resigned to calling down realizing that I'm, most likely, completely screwed. The only thing about a situation like this comes when I'm heads up against someone who re-raised me and I think there is a chance that I have their AK reverse dominated.

I do not let this go because the pot is too big to let it go, but I do try to avoid putting too much of my money in the pot.

Ajax410 · #9 10-03-2004, 05:46 PM

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What kind of actions do you translate this to? Raise AQs, but fold if it gets capped behind you?

Raise w/top pair top kicker, but fold if it gets capped behind you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel like this is definitly passive, but with this much action preflop, I think it might be the right play. I'd like to think that I'd be able to lay this down, but I know that rationally I'm paying off the guy who either flopped a set or an overpair.

To me, the pre-flop action is indicative that I don't have the best starting hand, and the action on the flop is indicative that I still don't have the best starting hand.

Like I've said, I'm pretty sure I still make the decision you do and call down. I can only think of one instance (it was somewhat similar to this one) where I've laid down a hand like this (I think it was AKs). It was painfully obvious my pair of kings was no good, and with no draw, I didn't feel like drawing to runner/runner full-house to beat the set that, in hindsight, I think 2 people had floppped (not to mention the rockets, which ended up winning when an ace spiked on the river). Some might have called my fold here passive/bad, but I think that sometimes, even if the pot odds are great, it is right to make a fold when you're absolutely sure you're beat.[list]

John White · #10 10-03-2004, 09:09 PM

Thanks for all the -very- thoughtful responses.