Too hard for TT?

Demian · #1 06-12-2004, 01:30 PM

No reads here. The flop cap was meant to hopefully lose the SB, but thinking about it now, i felt at this point like i was up against a higher pair, so is it worth capping when i'm probably already beat and a SB flush draw probably won't fold anyway? Feels like i'm making a decision to show down once i cap the flop here though, assuming SB doesn't come to life. Felt like i played this hand too hard and should have folded somewhere, but i'm still not sure if the flop (after his 3-bet) or turn would have been the better place.

Ultimate Bet 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG folds, MP raises, CO folds, Hero 3-bets, SB calls, BB folds, MP caps, Hero calls, SB calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, MP bets, Hero raises, SB calls, MP 3-bets, Hero caps, SB calls, MP calls.

Turn: (12.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, MP bets, Hero calls, SB calls.

River: (15.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, MP bets, Hero calls, SB folds.

Final Pot: 17.50 BB
Main Pot: 17.50 BB, between MP and Hero. > Pot won by MP (17.50 BB).

Results in white below: 
Hero shows Tc Td (two pair, tens and sevens).
MP shows Qc Qh (two pair, queens and sevens).
Outcome: MP wins 17.50 BB.

naphand · #2 06-12-2004, 06:23 PM

The flop cap is not going to remove SB, who has already called 2 cold.

I think MP's 3-bet is either a flopped set or, more likely, an overpair. Not many overpairs that you beat. That said, your flop cap and subsequent call-down is OK, I don't think you can fold this after the flop action with no overcards and no obvious draws. SB calling along adds equity to a situation where you are probably behind most of the time. I think it is possible that MP has 88-TT, but more likely JJ-AA or 66/77. A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or similar is also possible and these extra possibilities (beyond trips and better pairs) plus SB calling along, make the call-down a must.

The only consideration then, is whether to cap the flop or not. Not many advantages to capping here, but it's not a big mistake, and it may not be a mistake at all to charge SB the max to draw.

Demian · #3 06-12-2004, 09:47 PM

Thanks for your thoughts Nap. Don't feel quite as bad about this one now. Other than not capping the flop here then, do you see any other way to play this that costs you less? This player hadn't been at the table too long yet, but didn't seem overly aggressive, so when he caps pre-flop, i'm putting him on a pair that beats me already. With a different flop i get away from this faster, but on this one i'm still thinking maybe he plays AK this way, so i play my hand hard to see what he does. The 3-bet makes me sick. Possible to fold right then and there?

[ QUOTE ]
The only consideration then, is whether to cap the flop or not. Not many advantages to capping here, but it's not a big mistake, and it may not be a mistake at all to charge SB the max to draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

As far as the flop cap is concerned, i guess i decided to see the turn, hoped 2 more bets would kill the SB, which i now see was a dumb idea--he's not folding a flush draw for two more. But how often do you think a flop cap here gets an over-pair to check the turn to me? If so is it worth it here if i choose not to fold the flop? If he checks, i can bet, and fold to a raise from either opponent left. If no raise comes i can probably see a showdown for free if i choose. What do you think?

naphand · #4 06-13-2004, 04:14 AM

It's always tough to get to SD to see an overpair to yours, especially if you have suspicions of that. Given your opponent was unknown, I think you need to see this SD. Folding to a 3-bet on the flop with a good overpair cannot be right, and given that SB is not folding (after calling 2 cold on the flop he is seeing the River), if you are concerned about an overpair, don't be too worried by SB's overcalls. By taking overcalls you add a small level of risk, but less so than trying to control/win a pot when you are a serious dog.

Some players will 3-bet/cap this flop with very good draws (correctly) and TP goodish kicker (this could be A7 or A6). The PF action is your clue, but you will run into players who will cap any PP (ask Schneids about the 22 hand [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]).

Against unknowns who cap, take it as a sign they have a good hand, but don't fold this to a flop 3-bet; there are just too many other hands that could play this way. I have folded JJ in spots like like, only to see the aggressor with 99 and the calling station show down a trashy hand or a naked A. Granted, that is not usual but I think even though you suspect he has an overpair, I would call down here for the reasons given. PLUS he gets to see you cap with TT and play it very aggressively; you should get action on your later hands. His QQ cap is not the nuts either, and the information you get from this hand will stand you well for future encounters; your opponenet keeps firing with a hand that is beatable and you have the chance to catch him overplaying in future (though he was not overplaying this hand).

In game-play terms, you are far better off getting into a fight like this and showing down a legitimate hand, than meekly folding out to aggression. If you folded this and the other player folds his busted draw, no SD, no idea what cards you were against, not much to build a read on. You would also be telling the table/your opponents that a flop cap is enough to push you off a good hand.

As far as getting your opponent to check to you, that is very read/hand specific and probably not worth it with your hand, which has so few ways to improve. I think the only times he slows down are when you have him beat, or when the board helps you in some way (like an A falls). Looks like he wants to get chips in, the board has draws and overcards could be bad.

If you suspect an overpair, you could call the flop and raise/CR the Turn esp. if a scare card falls, and hope to buy a free SD. The 2nd 7 might have been enough to stop him here, but if you are thinking of folding then folding to a Turn 3-bet would be a spot to do this; the 3-bet would be a real show of strength and given your read (correct) you can fold against the large majority of opponents.

These hands are very opponent-specific. Early on, it could be good to test your opponent, but it may be preferable to get to SD with the board as it is.