15-30 Hand #14 - explosive turn action

nykenny · #1 04-15-2004, 03:01 PM

Quick question, was my turn action out of line? I know the opponent in question is a fish, but on this particular computer i was playing on, there was no note...

Online Poker 15/30 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 raises, CO folds, Hero 3-bets, SB folds, BB folds, MP2 calls.

Flop: (7.66 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players) 
MP2 bets, Hero raises, MP2 calls.

Turn: (5.83 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players) 
MP2 checks, Hero bets, MP2 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP2 caps, Hero calls.

River: (13.83 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players) 
MP2 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 15.83 BB

Results in white below: 
MP2 shows 3h 5s (straight, five high).
Hero shows Kh Ah (two pair, aces and kings).
Outcome: MP2 wins 15.83 BB.

Ulysses · #2 04-15-2004, 03:10 PM

Optical Illusions

This post reminds me of those pictures. If I look at it quickly, it looks like a legitimate hand post w/ questions. But then I look at it for a little longer and it looks just like a bad beat story. And, much like the pictures, once I see the second thing, that's pretty much all it looks like.

rigoletto · #3 04-15-2004, 03:13 PM

Don't like the turn 3-bet. You are either way behind or he'll fold his (semi-) bluff. Call down from here. I know you could be facing a weaker A who'll be calling a 3-bet, but if you can't fold to the cap...

I don't even think I want to raise the river here and risk facing a reraise.

Nightwish · #4 04-15-2004, 03:28 PM

Like you said, your opponent is a fish, but you don't know that yet, so he's an uknown at this point. Given that, the turn action is fine. I would have played it the same way with TPTK and the nut flush draw.

The only question is what to do on the river. I think the decision between calling and raising is very close.

Nightwish · #5 04-15-2004, 03:32 PM

What do you mean by "way behind"? You think the flush draw is no good?

rigoletto · #6 04-15-2004, 03:41 PM

Sorry, didn't not notice the flush draw. I think I would still just call though. He has shown nothing but strenght on all streets and he's not going to fold a better hand if I 3-bet, but he might fold a worse one. If I'm drawing I don't want to have to pay of a cap to see the river.

This is heads up! It would be much different if there where 1 or more players between us!

Ulysses · #7 04-15-2004, 04:38 PM

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Don't like the turn 3-bet

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Playing against the kind of opponent who will open-raise 35o and bet into a pre-flop 3-bettor on an AQ2 board, I will 3-bet the turn every time here.

[ QUOTE ]
You are either way behind or he'll fold his (semi-) bluff.

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Huh? All sorts of worse hands will call here.

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I don't even think I want to raise the river here and risk facing a reraise.

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If for some reason I didn't 3-bet the turn, I would raise the river just about 100% here.

rigoletto · #8 04-15-2004, 05:20 PM

Playing against the kind of opponent who will open-raise 35o and bet into a pre-flop 3-bettor on an AQ2 board, I will 3-bet the turn every time here.

1. The information we have is that he is a fish. But we don't know if he's a passive fish, agressive fish or what. You cannot base your read on after the fact knowledge that he raised with 35o. Also when I hear the expression fish I'll often assume weak player who calls to much. Had the description been LAG (as he obviously is) it would have been different.

2. He has shown Strenght on every street, so there are no reason to assume a weaker hand. All you have right now are top pair and it's not unreasonable to put him on QQ, AQ, A2, A4 or even AA (remote but possible) given the way he played it.

3. the 'bet/call flop, checkraise turn' sequence means a real hand the majority of the time. It's so calculated. Fishy bluffers usually flail away on the cheap street with top pair.

4. OK, I might agree on raising the river, but only if you'll fold to a reraise.

One of my biggest leaks used to be playing back at fishy players with less than stellar hands. It's just so easy to assume you have the best hand because 'you are the better player'.

Ulysses · #9 04-15-2004, 05:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1. The information we have is that he is a fish. But we don't know if he's a passive fish, agressive fish or what.

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Good point. I was assuming that Kenny had an idea this was an overaggro fish since he remembered him.

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2. He has shown Strenght on every street, so there are no reason to assume a weaker hand. All you have right now are top pair and it's not unreasonable to put him on QQ, AQ, A2, A4 or even AA (remote but possible) given the way he played it.

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I agree that he might have a better hand, especially A2 or A4. But the chances that you have a better hand PLUS your flush draw make this a good 3-bet IMO.

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3. the 'bet/call flop, checkraise turn' sequence means a real hand the majority of the time.

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I just find a lot of fishy players to be overaggressive. And those players often overvalue top pair / reasonable kicker.

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4. OK, I might agree on raising the river, but only if you'll fold to a reraise.

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Nope, I'd be calling and I don't think it's close at all. You don't think a 3-bet here will be from A2/A4/AQ enough of the time to make this call right? Look at the size of the pot.

nykenny · #10 04-15-2004, 05:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Optical Illusions

This post reminds me of those pictures. If I look at it quickly, it looks like a legitimate hand post w/ questions. But then I look at it for a little longer and it looks just like a bad beat story. And, much like the pictures, once I see the second thing, that's pretty much all it looks like.

[/ QUOTE ]
ahh, the good old Ulysses.

at the face value this post does indeed embed a bad beat. but story, no.

the truth i am trying to get is that, even as loose aggrossive as the opponent in question, the check-raise on the turn after getting raised by a btf 3 bettor on the flop usually spells great power?

thinking bad beat is natural, but also premitive. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Kenny