80-160 hand

[Clarkmeister]

This hand does not involve me.

80-160 Bellagio

Hero open raises two off the button with the Qs-Js. The cutoff and button both call and the blinds fold. Both opponents are unknown.

Flop: [Qc-7c-3c] Hero bets. Both opponents call.

Turn [Qc-7c-3c] 8h. Hero bets. The cutoff calls. The button raises.

What should Hero do?

[MarkD]

Fold.

The presence of the CO means that button's raise indicates a very strong hand. I don't think he's trying to represent a hand here - I think he has one and it has the Hero beat.

Button has a set of sevens or a flush.

[risen]

I'm going to assume a trickier type of opponent at 80-160, but this shows what sort of problems can arise when you try to steal the button from too far away from the button. Since 2 pair is pretty unlikely, with no read I'm pretty sure I'm behind, but not by how far, that could be a flopped flush coming to life, a flopped or turned set, or maybe just a naked big club. I think it's pretty close between 3 betting it to see where you stand and laying it down right here. But I don't have the bankroll to play 80-160. Make it 8/16 and I'm 3 betting it and tossing it if capped.

[King Yao]

the problem is the third player in the hand. the raiser is raising into two players who have already both put in one bet on the turn, he is likely not expecting both to fold. so that will mean he is more likely to have a legit hand than in other cases when it is headsup.

i would fold

[MarkD]

Ok. I guess I'm missing something here. You want to 3-bet and fold? Well, if you are going to put in two more bets why not just call on the turn and call again on the river. For the same two bets you gain all the equity of the showdown without costing yourself anything else. If the 4th flush card comes on the river you can still fold and it only cost you two bets instead of 3.

3-betting and folding to a raise doesn't seem right at all. 8-16, 80-160, 1-2 it just doesn't seem right.

[Clarkmeister]

FYI, a cap at the Bellagio is 5 bets, not 4.

[risen]

Well the three bet has the value of showing you if you're ahead or behind, and driving out the CO. (If the CO calls you're losing anyway) It could also get the Button off of a bluff if that's what he's doing. Though the information that the cap is 5 instead of 4 kind of ruins that line for me. If you call the turn and check call the river, you're definitely losing, with no chance of stealing the pot, I think putting those 2 bets in on the turn gives you the best chance to win the hand, but if the action isn't finished with a 4 bet, i'm just going to lay this down.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold.

The presence of the CO means that button's raise indicates a very strong hand. I don't think he's trying to represent a hand here - I think he has one and it has the Hero beat.

Button has a set of sevens or a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think a set of sevens is more likely than a flush from a great/good player.

a flush would want to raise to protect b/c it has no redraws against a lone club. a set, even though its still vulnerable can charge a lone club extra on the turn*in position* and simply call with odds to hit the unexpected boat which will certainly get paid off nicely.

at least thats what i'd be thinking...but either way its a good hand UNLESS, the button is trying to OUTTHINK two good players in the hand...with this being highly unlikely, and it being a turn raise after strength and a caller it seems like a bigtime hand, set or flush with set being my vote (also its more likely he called two cold on the button w/ only 3 players with a mid pair than two suited cards)
-Barron

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
If the CO calls you're losing anyway

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a call with the Ac here wouldn't be too hard.

[ QUOTE ]
If you call the turn and check call the river, you're definitely losing

[/ QUOTE ]

But by 3-betting you are somehow ahead? What hand has you beat but is going to fold when you 3-bet? I guess I don't understand your logic. If my hand is good enough to 3-bet the turn then there must be some sort of chance that it is the best hand - or else I might as well have 23o right? If there is no chance I'm ahead then 3-betting is a pure bluff. If there is a chance that I am ahead then there is certainly equity in calling the turn and check/calling the river.

[ QUOTE ]
Well the three bet has the value of showing you if you're ahead or behind

[/ QUOTE ]

And by just calling my opponent down I get the exact information, without any doubt, for the same price. I know I prefer exact information rather than in-exact, when the price is the same.

Even if this was a 4-bet cap you haven't convinced me that your line has more value / equity then simply calling the opponent down.

[Boris]

Fold. The cut-off provides a certain amount of protection from getting bluffed out. Also, with only a jack kicker, there are too many hands that have the hero in a world of hurt.