Hand against a maniac for review

[WalleyeJason]

MP is a certifiable Maniac, you never know what 2 cards this guys has.

Also, he's been on a huge roll, collecting chips dishing out bad beats. So in this hand when he made a min raise, it could have been any two cards in the deck , so I was thinking if I hit this hand, I might be able to double up.

Another note about MP, his betting patterns have been unpredictable, so putting this guy on a hand is really difficult.

Dealt to Walleye675 ( $256 ) On the Button [ Ac, 6c ]
MP ( $586.30) raises to 4
Walleye675 calls (4)
BB calls (2)

** Dealing Flop ** : [ Kc, 3c, Js ]

BB ( $98) checks.
MP bets (15)
Walleye675 calls (15)
BB folds.

** Dealing Turn ** : [ 8d ]
fladave checks.
Walleye675 checks.

** Dealing River ** : [ 8c ]
MP bets (30)
Walleye675 raises (60) to 60
fladave raises (60) to 90
Walleye675 calls (30)

I only called because the board was paired. I could easily see him holding J8 or K8.

I feel maybe I should have raised more on the river, but I really wasnt sure of where he was. If he had 38 im screwd, and thats how hes been running all night.

Results in white

<font color="white"> MP had 9d 8h for 3 of a kind </font>

[theBruiser500]

He's a maniac, so I'd try to get a lot more value than what you got. Also, if I were you I might have raised the flop or bet the turn or something because there's a chacne you could win the pot right there, but more importantly, against a maniac when you're drawing to a huge hand with huge stacks, you want to be in a position to make a lot of money.

If you raise the flop, he might jsut fold there, if he raises you then you can call and if you hit your hand you'll double up probably (although this has the disadvantage of maybe getting shut out and not seeing the river). If he calls the flop and you bet again on the turn he might just fold, but if he calls and you hit then you're in a godo position to win a huge pot on the river, if he raises you might get shut out of hte pot depending on the size of the raise, but it's a risk I like to take.

That's how I'd play it at least, I'd be interested to hear what other people ahve to say about this way of playing it.

danny

[muzungu]

Walleye-

Here's my line of reasoning:

1. Before you make your raise on the river, you need to decide if you think you're ahead or not. If you raise here, and he sets you all-in, and you decide to fold, then you should have just called his initial bet- saves you $ and gets you to a showdown you may very well win. So, if you're not willing to commit your stack here, then I'd call his initial $30 river bet.

If think you are ahead, then you should be wanting to get as much $ in the pot here as possible, and you should do whatever it takes to maximize how much gets out of his stack and into the pot. If he has been calling big bets, then you can bet pot, or however much you think he will call ($100 is the first number that comes to mind), and then call is all-in bet if he reraises.

2. Are you winning here? I'd imagine so. The cards have no memory (you know this)- just because the maniac has been catching cards doesn't mean he will continue to do so. And for him to have a boat he'd have needed at least 2 pair on the turn, and while you say his bets are unpredictable I think most maniac types would bet the turn with that holding. So I think you're good, and as such I'd go all-in to his re-raise. But, once again, the important thing is that you needed to make your read before you min-raised him on the river.

-muz

[spacemonkey]

I am not a big fan of raising maniacs on a drawing hand. I find that they almost always call and it makes it more expensive for you to hit yout hand. I think you should try and get there as cheaply as possible and extract the most money when you do hit it. On the other hand, with a made hand, I favour raising them big from the very start, to make sure they don't hit some miracle runner runner etc.
But different types of maniacs will respond differently. There are some who will fold at the first sign of resistance, others who won't fold if they have just a little something of the flop, others who won't fold whatever

[spacemonkey]

Sorry, I meant if you raise them they almost always call or reraise you.

[muzungu]

Danny-

(Oh, btw, have you been "Danny" all your life? I was until college, and then I guess I outgrew it, so it's been Dan for the last 6 years or so...)

Anyway... I'm not to thrilled about raising the flop or the turn. Here's why:

-flop raise: yeah, I considered this, but what if he reraises you? If so, I'd guess he has a K or a J (or better), in which case it's about 50/50 if you call his big bet, and if you fold you just lost any chance of busting him, along with $45 or so. And if he folds, you only pick up $25 or so- I wanna draw cheap so I can get his whole stack in when I know I'm ahead, not a coin flip. You're only paying about 5% of your stack to call here, so if you think you can get a big chunk of his cash if you hit your implied odds are good.

-turn: definite no-no. He's giving you the free card you want! As a general rule, if it's checked to you on the turn and you're thinking of bluffing, don't do it if you have outs- take the free card and try to hit them.

Also: bluffing against a maniac = bad news.

-muz

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
1. Before you make your raise on the river, you need to decide if you think you're ahead or not. If you raise here, and he sets you all-in, and you decide to fold, then you should have just called his initial bet- saves you $ and gets you to a showdown you may very well win. So, if you're not willing to commit your stack here, then I'd call his initial $30 river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a GREAT point. Once all the cards are out, you need to decide whether you are ahead or not. If you decide you are, trust your read. If you're not sure, then DON'T RAISE!

That said, it would take a helluva tell for me to put a "certifiable maniac" on a full-house, and a helluva large reraise (into my giant stack) to make me question whether I'm ahead.

I would have raised more on the river, and I would have re-raised all-in. As it turns out, there's a better chance of the Cubs winning the World Series than of him folding here.

[ QUOTE ]
...so I was thinking if I hit this hand, I might be able to double up.

[/ QUOTE ]
You hit your hand and had the perfect situation to double-up (he hit his hand, too). The only thing you lacked was confidence in your reads. In NL it is crucial to trust your reads.

[WalleyeJason]

You hit your hand and had the perfect situation to double-up (he hit his hand, too). The only thing you lacked was confidence in your reads. In NL it is crucial to trust your reads.

Ya, Im weak

Got to work on that!


Thanks
WJ

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
Ya, Im weak

Got to work on that!

[/ QUOTE ]

BTW, I don't know if this applies to you not, but I thought I'd mention it just in case. When I was still just beginning to dabble in NL, that would happen to me a lot. I had already played quite a bit of limit poker, so I was able to make good reads a lot, but I wasn't sure enough in my NL play to make the raise. I later realized that my skill at NL wasn't the real issue, my skill at reading my opponent was. Once I verbalized that to myself (over and over), I was more able to make these plays.

Also, having a healthy bankroll helps too. I found that once my bankroll was large enough where I didn't have to worry about going broke the next couple of sessions, I was more able to make confident plays like this (and probably more correct too, BTW).

[theBruiser500]

No one on this thread seems to like my strategy, but I stick by it for a few reasons...

In my experience, clueless maniacs don't reraise. They bet a lot, call a lot, sometimes even raise a lot, but they don't reraise a lot. I haven't run into maniacs that reraise much, I think reraising is a strong play and I see strong players reraising, I don't see many manaics reraise.

Also, if he reraises you I don't think it's even that bad. Walleye has $250 and he wants to get it all in the pot if he hits. If he raises on the flop to $40, and is reraised to $80 he can just call and if he hits on the turn he'll double up. $80 to double up is just about the right odds, a break even proposition I think, but this is a worst case scenario, most of the time the maniac will just call or fold.

I think it's even more important to bet the turn though. By checking you get a free card, but I wouldn't be looking to win a small pot here, the $40 in the pot now and then maybe a $40 value bet ont he river, I'd want to double up. By betting on the turn I think there's a real good chance you can win the pot there, he's a maniac and he checked, that's weakness. As it turned out he probaby woudl have called yoru bet because he had a piece of the flop. Then on the river you have a lot of outs, 3 aces, 3 tens, and 9 clubs, then since you're in control of the hand, you can just check if you hit a pair, or you can make a value bet. But the main reason I like betting is that if you hit your hand it adds deception, and also the pot's going to be a lot bigger so you can make a much bigger value bet and win a big pot.

danny