My bad call

[PrayingMantis]

Yes, I've just made a bad call. I would like to know how bad was it, and what would you think and do in the same spot.

2 tables 11$ SNG. 6 left, blinds 200/400 ante 25. I'm 2nd stack w/ T5890, holding A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] on the BB. All fold to SB, 3rd stack w/ T4000, who raises to 1200. I call (?).

Flop: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

SB immediately goes all-in. Few hands before I all-in-ed him on the river w/ big pot, and he thought for a long time and folded. I think this might be his time to show aggressiveness. I think he has second pair, maybe some small pocket pair, or a lower ace than mine: A3, A4, A5, A6. I think that with most higher aces he would have gone all-in pre-flop, or bet harder, or maybe just complete. And with a real monster here (set or 2 pairs) I don't see him push.
Pot is 5175. I call with 2775, and still have 1890 if I lose.

He show: A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I lose.

What do you think about this call? Was it that terrible and why?


PrayingMantis

[CrisBrown]

Hiya P.M.,

It's not a call I'd have made, with a flush draw developing on the board and Ace-rag in my hand. I don't mind the pre-flop call if you read him for what was essentially a steal raise. But once that flop fell, you were no longer suited in any way that mattered, and all you had was Ace-rag.

Given his play, he could have been on AQ, QQ, 22, A2s, or Ax-hearts, all of which you're behind at this point. I'd have folded to his reraise.

Cris

[LetsRock]

The PF call isn't awful, but it is somewhat questionable. Your getting into the shorthanded realm where any Ace starts to become pretty powerful. His PFR was sizable but not big enough to indicate something like AA. I'd probably make the call most of the time from BB (depending on how much of a read I had on the player) as it does feel like a bit of a steal.

Your flop call was not awful either - it is a very tough decision. A "fast all-in" (although it's really hard to tell what is "fast and normal" on-line) sure stinks of steal, but you have a really vulnerable hand here. I guess it would depend on where the results would leave me stack-wise.

Does folding here leave me in #3 stack (since SB would pass me by taking the current pot)? If so, I'd probably make the crying fold. If I'm going to be 4th or 5th stack regardless I'd probably make the call and hope he has #2 pair.

His play was great and put you in a tough spot. At least you weren't completely crippled and you had a little ammo left to fight back.

I'm trying to become a less passive in my tourney play and these are exactly the type of hands that always give me trouble; I never seem to "guess" right (and this is pretty much a guessing game situation in my opinion).

I don't think you should beat yourself up too much on this one.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
It's not a call I'd have made, with a flush draw developing on the board and Ace-rag in my hand. I don't mind the pre-flop call if you read him for what was essentially a steal raise. But once that flop fell, you were no longer suited in any way that mattered, and all you had was Ace-rag.


[/ QUOTE ]
If you can't bet/call that flop, then you shouldn't call preflop. Suitedness matters very little preflop when it's heads up. Unless you get a miracle flop (like an ace w/ two clubs, or flop the nuts) the pot simply doesn't lay you enough to continue w/ just the draw.
That is essentially the flop he wanted to see, right? The only thing he can put his opponent on that he can beat preflop, but can't beat on the flop is A2, A3, A9, maybe A10. Any bigger Ace, and the guy probably just completes and goes for limp-reraise.
Personally, I would have either folded preflop or quickly called this flop.

[jw2k]

Hi,

I'm a long time lurker, first time poster. Here's my take.

I just don't like the pre-flop call here. Post-flop you're just screwed. At this point in the tourney, you're getting close to the money. Both you and
the SB need to avoid potentially stack-shattering confrontations... at least until you're down to four (three?) players and in the money. With only 10 big blinds left in my stack, if I've got a chance to steal the blinds and antes against a slightly larger-stacked BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], then I'm putting all of my chips in preflop. I don't want the BB coming along with any hand, or worse, coming over the top and putting me to a decision. He made a mistake here, in my opinion. IMHO, it would be a mistake to not move in with AA here either... too many times I've gotten calls from stuff like A6s, 33 and QTo when I would be happy with just the blinds and antes.

Now, given A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in the big blind in the situation you were in, I've got a decision to make. If I think he'll fold his semi-steal hands, I'm allin. If I think that he doesn't like releasing a hand with 1/4 of his stack in the pot, then I'm folding. I don't want to go allin against QJo and see a call... his call would be +EV or close to it given how many chips are already in the pot.

Just my T0.02,
jw

[PrayingMantis]

Thanks for the replies. Regarding the call pre-flop, as I see it now, it might be wrong or right, I'm not sure about it yet. I wasn't convinced folding or re-raising is better.

But I made a deeper analysis of my call on the flop, since there wasn't any real agreement here. Please critisize...



Hands of SB that are consistent with his raise PF, and all-in on the flop, in my view:

Version 1 : A9 - A3, QK - Q9.

Version 2 : All the above, plus A2, AK-AT, AA, QQ. I think this version of hands is a bit less probable, from reasons mentioned in the original post.

Now, My odds of being ahead of version 1 hands (this is rough calculation, that doesn't take in miracles on turn & river) are 24:80 (0.3:1) for me. (I counted all the hands combinations: A9 has 8, KQ has 12 and so on).

My odds of being ahead of version 2 hands are 60:80 (0.75:1), still in my favor!

The odds I'm getting on the pot are 1.86:1.

That means, that in best case scenario (version 1 hands) my chips EV for calling is +T3346.

In worst case scenario (version 2 hands) my EV for calling is +T1755.

The "real" EV is somewhere in between. Add to this all kinds of all-in bluffs, and the EV is getting even higher.

If I'm not completely mistaken here, which is very possible at this day and hour, this isn't a bad call, but a very good one.




Please correct me if I'm wrong,


PrayingMantis