the wisdom of drawing 2 cards to a pair

[stripsqueez]

the paradise 5/10 5 max draw game seems to have been more popular of late so i am getting to play more of this game which i enjoy a lot

i am puzzled by the drawing practices of many of my opponents - commonly an opponent will draw 2 cards despite the fact that the betting makes it obvious that they are drawing to one pair - i will draw 2 cards to a pair but only if to do so is effective concealment of my hand ie to avoid steal attempts on my big pair if i dont improve when i am last to act - i like to swing my lowest kicker

i appreciate that circumstances will vary but can anyone comment about the merits of this practice ? - how badly are the odds of improving hurt by keeping a big kicker ?

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[crockpot]

the overall odds of improving are hurt somewhat, but not that much. (i want to say your chances of improving are about 90% of what they would be otherwise). the problem is that your chances of improving to trips go down significantly.

if you know your opponent has two pair, it actually makes sense to keep an ace kicker.

[Aragorn]

>>if you know your opponent has two pair, it actually makes sense to keep an ace kicker.

It's been a long time since I ran the numbers on this, but I am pretty sure this is wrong. The reduced odds of making a set probably offset the chances of making a better two pair. This is particularly true in a game without the joker.

You generally want to draw 3 to a pair and 1 or zero to anything else. You don't want to draw 2 to 3 of a kind, since that gives away too much information. As a result, you also don't want to draw 3 to a pair.

[Hedge Henderson]

[ QUOTE ]
You generally want to draw 3 to a pair... As a result, you also don't want to draw 3 to a pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know the standard poker answer is "it depends", but help me out on this one...

In my mostly loose-passive home game, I'll usually raise with a high pair (QQ-AA) or better on the button, and limp with a medium pair (99-JJ) if there are a couple limpers ahead of me, since I don't know anyone in the game who wouldn't raise with a pair of face cards. Hell, half of them will raise with any pair.

If I've raised, I'll usually keep the ace kicker unless one of those loose players takes four cards. I'll also hold on to an ace or king kicker about a third of the time if I just limp with the medium pair. I can't say it's a strategy to use against good players but, against these guys, it does make them think a bit. They've seen me fold a lot and, if I draw two, it makes them nervous.

[stripsqueez]

i think you get the point - i think that all these posts agree that drawing 2 cards to a pair is a good plan if it effectively conceals your holding on the actual hand or other hands - there is no point drawing 2 cards to a pair if its not possible for you to have three of a kind to start with, or it doesnt effectively conceal your hand - ie i do it most when i am last to act, to stop a 3 card drawer bluffing, if i was first to act it wouldnt be much use unless i planned to bluff myself - crockpot seems to think it has value beyond concealment when you have a big kicker and you know your opponent has 2 pair - no doubt the technical merit of this idea is close

i think its a disgrace to limp before the blinds even in the scenario you describe (it would be better if you limped with a flush or straight draw) - the horror of watching the BB draw 4 or 5 cards and win the pot, without paying to do so, is more than i can ever bear

whilst on the topic can i also put forth that it is often right to sit pat with 4 of a kind - rare though it will be that you get such a hand - certainly its right if you bluff this posistion or someone sits pat before you - in the goosy schools i play in i like open limping first or second to speak with nothing, raising a raise if there is one, sitting pat and obviously betting after the draw - i was 5 for 5 with this till the last 2 times when i got caught but then had the joy of repeating it when i got dealt 88886 and got "caught" again

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[bygmesterf]

Doesn't limp reraising cause the game to get really tight? Maybe this is less of a problem in the big draw games.

When I play against people who are known to limp reraise (figliodoro on paradise is notorious for this). If they limp, I rarely limp in on a very strong hand, and only raise before the draw with something extremely strong.

Bygmesterf

[stripsqueez]

its all possible in draw - making the game tight isnt a big problem though

i actually prefer the tight games - it simply requires more thought and practice of various bluffing posistions - i get into silly tight games where the majority of hands are merely exchanging the blinds - thats not hard to do and break close to even - its then a matter of finding the correct bluff

i love draw because it feels like the most imaginative player will do the best - you cant afford to play like a mindless rock against decent players as with many other games

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Al Mirpuri]

[ QUOTE ]
>>if you know your opponent has two pair, it actually makes sense to keep an ace kicker.



It's been a long time since I ran the numbers on this, but I am pretty sure this is wrong. The reduced odds of making a set probably offset the chances of making a better two pair. This is particularly true in a game without the joker.

[/ QUOTE ]

The overall odds for making two pair get better when you keep a kicker and yes the odds for everything else get worse.

If you specifically need two pair to win then it might pay to keep a high kicker. The Ace kicker is particularly good if you are playing with the bug. In a family pot it would be wrong most of the time to keep a kicker. There are too many draws out there for the opposition to hit.

For any disinformation to go out, you need to have played your hand as if you had trips and that also means you do not always need to draw one card when you do have trips.

If you have a pair of Aces and think your opponent may have a pair of Aces as well then you would keep a King kicker as a matter of course. This is a very specific play.

[archmagi]

The odds you're after are (rounded to nearest):

Drawing 3 cards:
any improvement: 3:1
trips or better: 7:1

Drawing 2 cards (holding an A kicker):
any improvement: 3:1
aces up or better: 4:1
trips or better: 11:1

So you loose quite a bit in odds there. However concealing your hand is very important in draw, hence it can be a good play if you play the rest of the hand accordingly.
I know this guy who always draws 2 cards (to a pair or trips), and if you don't adjust it kills you.