Weak-tight advice in TOP?

[chesspain]

In the chapter on "pot odds" from TOP, Sklansky recommends folding A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] when the board shows

A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

and you are in the BB and SB leads out with a bet. He claims that your hand may already be dominated, and that you may also be facing a raise behind you, meaning that you may not have the pot odds to continue with this hand.

I would think that your decision here would be dependent on the PF action. Was there a bet, or did everyone limp? Was it three-bet to you? If so, mucking PF may have been best. How much did the SB have to call PF? Etc.

Do any of you agree with my questioning Sklansky's advice, or am I just overanalyzing this?

[Mike]

I don't have TOP near me, so I may be off on my own tangent and this has nothing to do with your question or the example....

If SB is a reasonable straight up player and bets, I am probably outkicked. If there is a raise behind me, I have certainly thrown a sb away.

Of course expanding your line of thought SB could be holding a four flush, a straight draw, or a pair of 5's.

I think with the set up of the hand and the board, it comes down to available outs against reasonable player(s).

Holding two spades on a rainbow board doesn't give BB much to fall back on with an Ace and poor kicker. What cards can land on the turn or river to improve ATc and not the SB or other players hand(s)?

Finally considering pot equity. BB has nothing invested by choice unless he calls SB post flop bet. Calling SB post flop bet could put him farther in if a raise follows, a card comes that helps BB. If SB bets out again on the turn, when say a third Ace or a Ten falls. What happens now? Does BB raise, call, or fold?

I hope this is along the line of your thoughts.

[Huh]

I don't recall this part of TOP, I don't mind the play, depending on how many players there are behind, and the pre flop action. You could be far behind, and close to half of the time your hand will be no good cause of the flush anyhow.

By the way, I don't like the title of your post (no offense). I don't consider this weak-tight at all. Tight-Agressive is all about picking your spots. Folding here (if the situation is right) is being tight imo, not weak. Raising here in the right spot may be agressive. Calling here would be weak-tight in my opinion, unless you know the sb to be a habitual under-better or likes betting into the field with a flush draw. Than I might advocate calling with the intention of check-raising the turn if the flush card doesn't fall or check-folding if it does. But alas, I think it depends.....

[Nottom]

I don't remember the passage either, but it does strike me as a bit odd. AT isn't that bad against a hand from the SB, depending his completion standards.

Doesn't DS also advocate bluffing into aces from the blinds in an unraised pot? The SB could easily be betting a Q figuring an A would have raised preflop. I don't think I would ever call here, but raising seems like a better option than folding to me in most cases.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I don't have the book in front of me, but I am quite sure it was NOT three-bet, otherwise why would you be in the pot? If it was raised, I assume you called from the BB, and it is surely likely to be raised behind the SB's bet. Therefore folding is really a bad idea. If it's unraised, you might have a bit of a better case to play, but if so I'd go ahead and raise yourself, rather than give flush or gutshot str8 draws cheap odds. The number of players makes a difference too, as the pot odds go up you should be more inclined to play, but you are still pretty precarious here, so caution may be in order as the best possible move anyway.

al

[lunchmeat]

Well I do have TOP in front of me, and I have to admit that this advice struck me as strange.

One distinction Sklansky does make, however, is that the pot is multiway. I still don't think this is enough of a factor on its own to make a fold correct. Now if the pot was multiway AND raised pre-flop, or if it was multiway AND you are facing strong opposition, then a fold seems to be the sensible option. But I can't think of any other situations than those that I wouldn't raise.

[rigoletto]

I don't have TOP near me,

Favorite sentence of this thread. Does anybody have TOP near by? Please!

[Ruddiger]

I wish I knew what a couple or a few players or "a number" really meant in a lot of the passages of holdem for advanced players and TOP.
In that passage he basically says that you face the possibility of being second best and being outdraw. He also says there are "a number of players" behind you. Any idea on how many a number is?

[Paul Talbot]

It's page 42. In answer to others questions, Sklansky does not describe the PF action nor say exactly how many "numerous opponents" is. I take it to be 4 or more.

His explanation is that the dual possibility of you being behind PLUS getting draw out on by either the straight or the flush make the hand worth folding to a SB bet into a large field which implies a strong made hand or a strong draw. Note AQ and Q9 and A9 are all routinely played hands so you may be drawing dead or only have 3 outs if you are behind.

I think an additional point here is that if the SB has a strong draw he is betting out hoping for callers and a raise so he can jam which is a terrible result for AT here.

I don't think it's weak-tight. I think you get trapped for a lot of bets in big multi-way pots here too often.

If you have an edge it is small. I know I'm not a good enough player to pursue very small edges out of position with a mediocre kicker in a multi-way pot. Others may be able to play it a lot better than me.

Regards,

Paul

[rigoletto]

It's allways hard to argue with Mr. Sklansky, but I would raise here most of the time unless I know the opposition well enough to know that there is a bigger A behind me. I raise because if sb has a weaker A the odds are that the last A is not out there and I have a chance of a) getting the pot HU against a weaker hand b) make the draws behind me pay c) folding gutshots to this semicoordinated board. I would be quick to fold to any further action (since I'm likely drawing nearly dead).

I also assume that 4 or more players to the flop implies a lot of bad players at the table and by raising here I'm really charching the gutshots, weak A's and other pair hands.

I think the question here is: why play ATs to begin with if you'll fold top pair decent kicker for 1 bet on the flop?

I hope Mr. Sklansky can/will answer this!