Overpair against aggression

[Sleepy Weasel]

.5/1 on UB. I'm UTG+1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. UTG folds, I raise. UTG+2 3 bets. The big blind calls and I call (I would always cap with kings or aces, but should I with queens?)

Flop is T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

BB checks and I bet. Raised by EP, and reraised (!) by the BB. I call, so does EP.

Turn is [T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

BB checks. I don't like the look of that turn one bit, so I check, as does EP. (hmm)

River is [T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

BB checks again. I'm hopelessly confused, and at this point just want a showdown, so I check, so does EP.

Should I be more/less aggressive at any point here?

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm hopelessly confused, and at this point just want a showdown, so I check, so does EP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting to a showdown is rarely a worthwhile goal. It is usually the goal of the inexperienced, the timid, and the weak. Fortunately, experience, bravery (in the poker sense), and power (in the form of knowledge) are not too hard to come bye.

The A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on the turn looks more scary than it actually is. There are only two hands which now beat you which didn't before. One would be a flush draw which got there. The other is somebody holding Ax.

Let's deal with the EP first. He 3-bet pre-flop and then raised your flop bet on a Ten-high flop. But, he didn't cap the flop beting. He slowed down when the BB 30bet. Do you think his most likely holding is a big Ace or a pocket pair? Usually, I think he's got a pocket pair with and overpair being most likely. Most players just don't raise the flop with an unimproved AK/AQ/AJ. Maybe he's got a Ten but I doubt it. So, the Ace didn't hit him. Since it was the A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] which came on the turn, it also seems very unlikey he has flush since AKs and AQs would be his most liklely pre-flop 3-betting hands. So, I think you can discount the chances that EP has just outdrawn you.

The BB is a harder read. He called two bets cold pre-flop defending his blind. Then he 3-bet two pre-flop raisers. But, he slowed down when the Ace came. I doubt he's worried about the flush. But, he could easily be worried about AK or AQ. Unless he's being ultra timid with a set, I think he has top pair or even an overpair like JJ himself.

You may be beaten. But, after the turn gets checked through and the BB checks the river, you should be able to conclude that you were not outdrawn on the turn. Either your hand was good on the flop and still is or you were beaten on the flop and still are. I'm betting your hand is good.

[Sleepy Weasel]

[ QUOTE ]
Getting to a showdown is rarely a worthwhile goal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, good point. Here I thought I was beaten though, so I wasn't excited about the choice of either putting more money in the pot or folding.

[ QUOTE ]
It is usually the goal of the inexperienced, the timid, and the weak. Fortunately, experience, bravery (in the poker sense), and power (in the form of knowledge) are not too hard to come bye.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why I'm here [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's deal with the EP first. He 3-bet pre-flop and then raised your flop bet on a Ten-high flop. But, he didn't cap the flop beting. He slowed down when the BB 30bet. Do you think his most likely holding is a big Ace or a pocket pair? Usually, I think he's got a pocket pair with and overpair being most likely. Most players just don't raise the flop with an unimproved AK/AQ/AJ. Maybe he's got a Ten but I doubt it. So, the Ace didn't hit him. Since it was the A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] which came on the turn, it also seems very unlikey he has flush since AKs and AQs would be his most liklely pre-flop 3-betting hands. So, I think you can discount the chances that EP has just outdrawn you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good analysis, I agree completely. So if we think he has an overpair, that means JJ, QQ, KK, AA. AA is out because he would bet the turn. QQ is unlikely given my hand. I was worried about KK (seeing monsters?).

[ QUOTE ]
The BB is a harder read. He called two bets cold pre-flop defending his blind. Then he 3-bet two pre-flop raisers. But, he slowed down when the Ace came. I doubt he's worried about the flush. But, he could easily be worried about AK or AQ. Unless he's being ultra timid with a set, I think he has top pair or even an overpair like JJ himself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, his 3 bet on the flop threw me. So if he has an overpair too, that would be the same choice between JJ and KK right? My chances seem to be getting slimmer. (actually wait, he didn't raise preflop, so that probably makes KK less likely)

[ QUOTE ]
You may be beaten. But, after the turn gets checked through and the BB checks the river, you should be able to conclude that you were not outdrawn on the turn. Either your hand was good on the flop and still is or you were beaten on the flop and still are. I'm betting your hand is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

So would you bet the river?

You're right, EP showed JJ, and BB had 89.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
So would you bet the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

I said "I'm betting your hand is good"

[Sarge85]

Some good discussion. Was your hand good?

I would surmise that maybe BB could have had pocket pair also, one that matched the board giving him a set. Hince the 3 Bet making other pay for the flush draw. Then the Ace [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] hits. Could be a scare card for a set holder. and he is planning to check call, or check raise (to test), the bettor.

Then again i may be seeing monsters too.

Sarge [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]