Flopped a Boat, trying to extract the Max

[Barry]

8/16 PP I’m on the button with T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

UTG (loose, weak) limps, folded to CO (LAG, he raised more preflop than I played) limps, I limp, SB (decent player) completes, BB (decent player) checks. 5 to the flop

Flop is T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Wow, I like this. SB checks, BB bets, UTG calls, CO raises, I call as does everyone else.

Turn is K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Checked to CO who bets. Do I get in 2 bets now or go for the overcalls with 3 to act behind me and wait to the river to raise? A raise may lose all but the flush draws, plus it will discourage the CO from betting the river? This is the time I wished that the LAG was to my left.

[SossMan]

I would raise the turn and hope to get reraised. Don't worry, the flush draws aren't going anywhere.

[elysium]

hi barry
go ahead and raise. you have the clear lead, and the heart draws will call. also, you don't have an invincible hand, and a K hitting on the river really crimps your lifestyle here. raise for value. they should keep coming.

[Rushmore]

I think this is a great example of when you know you've taken a step in the right direction, skill and knowledge-wise.

You should raise. For the first million hands I played, I would have called, but now, it's a raise. You should raise 100% of the time.

At this point, the flush draws are calling. Hell, you might even get a call from a straight draw, strong king, the case ten, whatever. In fact, coming to life when the king hits makes your hand tougher to read.

Plus, if it's just the CO's king and 3 draws, and a brick hits the river, how much action do you expect to get? Picture this: check, check, check, bet, fold, fold, and fold/crying call.

Not very yummy.

As opposed to getting their money on the turn and then watching them dejectedly muck to the river brick.

OR...The Holy Grail: Get your raise in on the turn, watch in astonishment as the queen of hearts hits the river, and you get PAID.

So, uh, raise the turn.

[Diplomat]

I would have three-bet the flop. Same argument for raising the turn -- flushdraws and other hands are calling. Oddly enough, three-betting hides the strength of your hand, because people often go nuts on the flop with draws, etc., and rarely pound the nuts right away. Then I'd expect to get check-raised on the turn by the case ten. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

If I were Ulysses though, I'd expect someone to have pocket kings, and I would expect to catch the case ten on the river. It's only fair.

-Diplomat

[Barry]

Well I guess that I haven't made it to that level yet. I nearly raised, but wound up calling. I hated that play the more that I thought about it. I need to be able to make that raise instinctively and not mull it over.

I probably should also write "I will not slowplay" on the blackboard 1,000 times

There were 2 overcallers and the turn was a brick (4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img])

Checked again to the CO who bet, I finally woke up and raised; only the CO called with his Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. A "Q" on the river would have killed me.

[Rushmore]

I really only meant to say that this kind of play is sort of one of my poker epiphanies. I basically woke up to the logic of the thing, and shrugged off the original inclination one has when one starts playing to constantly seek, first and foremost, to disguise one's hand (whereas at this point in the hand, the gloves need to come off).

I used the queen as a random example intended to mean "Card which makes everyone at the table a straight or flush."

You were lucky the CO bet into you on the river.

Anyway, it sounds like the good natural instinct kicked in right after you smooth called the turn, and that's certainly a step in the right direction, right?

Good luck.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have three-bet the flop. Same argument for raising the turn -- flushdraws and other hands are calling.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. It's a very drawy board. Pound away - big draws (or hopefully the case ten) will pound right back.

[ QUOTE ]
If I were Ulysses though, I'd expect someone to have pocket kings, and I would expect to catch the case ten on the river. It's only fair.

[/ QUOTE ]
I learned a good strategy from JA Sucker that I'll pass on to everyone here. When in doubt, suck out. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[Barry]

I knew what you meant by your reference to the Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], it's just that in this case it would have been magic for the CO and not me.

Every now and again I need to get a public whipping in order to continue to improve.

Thanks all

[Barry]

Elysium -

That has got to be your shortest and easist to understand post, ever! It must be because the answer was easy.