Strong flush draw

#1 11-21-2005, 08:26 AM

$2-$4 pacific, no reads yet but table seems fairly loose.
Hero is UTG +1 with Kc-2c
Preflop: UTG folds, hero calls (wrong I know but about to leave for work and I'm feeling lucky [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]), MP, MP+1 and button call, SB folds, BB raises, all call (10.5 SB's)

Flop: Ac,Kd, 3c. BB bets, hero...

I see raising here as a good option cos I might get a better King or weak Ace to fold and hope that BB has got queens or Jacks or something.

However if I just call and go for overcalls to build a big pot, then I've got equity on my side don't I?

#2 11-21-2005, 08:39 AM

You got a ton of outs, perhaps the two remaining kings are good too. Loose table, I'd raise for value with no reads, but if I was sure somebody after me is raising then I would just call then reraise then $$$. But I'd probably still raise 99 times out of 100.

crunchy1 · #3 11-21-2005, 09:09 AM

Raising here sucks. The only outs you can realistically count for yourself are your 9 flush outs. There's no reason to raise and force any of the remaining 4 players out of the pot.

#4 11-21-2005, 09:16 AM

I really do think the 2's are good, not fully three outs perhaps. And if there's one more king out there and we get him to fold, we've got one more out. Or the two remaining kings could be good. If one more guy calls behind us the raise is for value. If everybody folds we could get a free card, but in that case of course I like calling better, but I based my decision on that the table is loose, and probably at least one more will call behind us.

Okey, even if calling is better, I really don't think "raising sucks". [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

adsman · #5 11-21-2005, 09:30 AM

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Okey, even if calling is better, I really don't think "raising sucks". [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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I think raising here sucks big fat donkey balls.

#6 11-21-2005, 09:53 AM

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I think raising here sucks big fat donkey balls.

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Thank you, now I've learned something new.

The worst that could happen is that everybody folds, but in that case most of our 14 outs are good. Another "bad" thing that could happen is if somebody reraises behind us and BB folds, but almost 14 outs here too. But a lot of good things could happen too. Loose table so weak aces calling, gutshots calling, BB reraising, $$$...

I'm probably wrong, fully respecting your number of posts, but please elaborate on why calling is enormously much better than raising. I'm still just an ambitious student learning the game.

crunchy1 · #7 11-21-2005, 09:56 AM

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I really do think the 2's are good, not fully three outs perhaps. And if there's one more king out there and we get him to fold, we've got one more out. Or the two remaining kings could be good.

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You're kidding right? The 2's are good!?! [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] If you think that one-pair lower than Aces is winning on the river here you're very misguided.

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If one more guy calls behind us the raise is for value.

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And what if the BB 3-bets when the action is back to him. Or what if our raise folds out a weaker flush draw or pocket pair that could've made a second best hand and paid us off.

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I based my decision on that the table is loose, and probably at least one more will call behind us.

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I understand but, note this: The OP said it "seemed" "fairly" loose. Does this mean loose PreFlop? Loose PostFlop? It's not your fault that the OP didn't distinguish the facts better. However - generally when I see tables referred to as loose it's referring to PF play. The general tendency of most weak players is to limp almost any two cards PF; this type of player might trail along for one bet with a weak gutshot or back door draw - but they generally fold for more action than just a 1SB call.

A flop raise from our Hero is going to drive out these weak draws that would call for one bet but, not two. We don't mind these players calling. They're contributing bet's to grow the pot. They'll pay us off when they hit second best hands. They've got little to zero outs against us when we hit on the turn.

This clearly makes raising "suck"!

crunchy1 · #8 11-21-2005, 10:01 AM

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The worst that could happen is that everybody folds, but in that case most of our 14 outs are good. Another "bad" thing that could happen is if somebody reraises behind us and BB folds, but almost 14 outs here too. But a lot of good things could happen too. Loose table so weak aces calling, gutshots calling, BB reraising, $$$...

I'm probably wrong, fully respecting your number of posts, but please elaborate on why calling is enormously much better than raising. I'm still just an ambitious student learning the game.

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I on all these points in my post above. But here's a few other tidbits...

If the game is really loose post-flop - you're not going to fold ANY ace. This means that you don't have any "pair" outs - you'd need to catch running 2-pair or trips to win (and sometimes those won't be good either).

I also have no clue where you're getting 14 outs from. You can't count your K's and 2's as outs. You're not going to win the pot just by hitting one of those 6 cards. There are 9 clubs left in the deck and those are the only outs that we're looking to hit in a 6-way raised pot.

#9 11-21-2005, 10:03 AM

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I really do think the 2's are good, not fully three outs perhaps. And if there's one more king out there and we get him to fold, we've got one more out. Or the two remaining kings could be good.

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You're kidding right? The 2's are good!?! [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] If you think that one-pair lower than Aces is winning on the river here you're very misguided.

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Erh, man, did you read the hand right? We have the nut flush draw AND a pair of kings! [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] So you don't think two pairs K's and 2's beats a pair of aces?

#10 11-21-2005, 10:04 AM

Perhaps you should read the hand again my friend.