bluffing in PLO

[Erdnase]

Hi all,

How much bluffing is going on in PLO (high only),how much bluffing do you do?


Any river bluffing?

Greets, Erd.

[Guy McSucker]

I do a bit of bluffing in the online PLO games. Not all that often, not with no hand at all, and only against certain players in convincing situations. In my experience most players pay me off when I have the nuts so it's foolish to think they'll fold when I haven't.

Examples are betting the river when the board pairs but I still only have the straight I made on the turn, or betting when a flush turns up against someone who seems to have been betting trips against my wrap-and-the-other-flush-draw. Also, if I've been betting a big draw against a caller and nothing seems to get there on the river, I'll often bet again - if he's on a pure draw this often works.

When I get called, fair enough, nice call, and you'll pay me off when I hit the nuts, won't you?

Of course some pots are just up for sale anyway.

Anyone have further examples?

Guy.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

The most common and most convincing bluff in PLO is the dry ace bluff. If the nuts is a flush, and you have the A of that suit but not another, you KNOW that nobody has the nuts. As long as you've played the hand in a manner that is consistent with having the nut flush draw, you can often bluff when the flush cards hits (and doesn't pair the board at the same time).

Aside from that, while there is a lot of semi-bluffing with big draws, there shouldn't be too much pure bluffing in PLO, especially if you don't know the opponents very well.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Erdnase]

Hi Guy,

thanks for your reply. I have just started to play PLO again, online at PP, mostly the 50 buyin tables and it is a goldmine!

However, I plan on moving up in limits and I am sure the opposition will get tougher (although maybe not online). Hence my inquiry about bluffing. Might come in handy.

I have tried some of the bluffs you wrote about online, with success.

However, most of the time, I am strictly playing the nuts. Most people pay me off, so no reason to get fancy.

Thanks for your thoughts,

Greets, Erd.

[Zeno]

"How much bluffing is going on in PLO (high only),”


Not much.

“how much bluffing do you do?"

I never bluff.


"Any river bluffing?"

Rarely but it does happen. This last question does remind me of a great river bluff that I witnessed in a hotly contested PLO hand. It deserves to be told, goes like this:

Player A, semi-maniac (SM) at times, knows the odds, but will still make questionable all in calls, goes on tilt easy. Player B, very solid (VS), tight aggressive player, “always” shows down a good hand. Big history between both players and they know one another well. SM usually gives VS a bad time (mostly good natured but with very tense undercurrents) about VS playing so few hands etc.

Goading is going on both ways between the two this night and a few big pots are played between them. Tension is now high. Hand went like this:

All fold to SM who opens for a max raise, and all fold to VS who calls. They jaw at each other pre-flop. Very tense and quiet post-flop. Both have big stacks, 3 or 4 thousand.

Flop is Ace (black) with two connected smallish middle cards, both hearts (don’t remember exact cards, money rounded).

SM bets pot, VS raises, SM re-rasies the max. VS calls. $1200 in pot.

Turn is another heart, a Queen.

SM bets $1000---------VS Calls. Pot $3200

As the river is dealt I was thinking; I wonder what will happen if the board pairs?

River Card Pairs The Board (one of the middle cards).

SM is aghast; he quivers slightly - like an animal taking a bullet. Then he quietly Checks (big mistake?).

VS waits and thinks for a bit, then he bets $1200.

SM holds his cards out in front, stares at the them, and then at the board, mutters to himself, he is so beside himself that he is almost silent. He then folds; finally saying, "can’t beat the full house".

VS then shows his cards, he has nothing, no hearts, not even a pair.

SM had, I am sure; Ax of hearts with x most likely a king. He will raise on two good cards so his other cards may have been rags or he may have had a fairly good hand with side cards like a ten and jack, or ten and nine etc.

I think VS had 8910J double suited (I remember diamonds and clubs). The middle cards on board were probably 67 with 7 on the river. VS call on the turn is questionable but I think he was banking everthing on the board paring. SM KNEW that VS would only call a big bet on the turn if he had a set. I KNEW that also, and so did everyone else.


SM was actually somewhat gracious; he knew what a great play it was. He simmers but does say nice bet. VS retorts, why did you check the river?

Utter silence.

Dealer starts the next hand.

It has been more than a year since this hand occurred so exact details are a little murky but the entire gist of this hand I will remember forever.

A bluff like this is very rare. And Fossilman is correct that you must know your opponent very well and have an excellent read on his holding.


-Zeno.

[Guy McSucker]

Those games certainly are a goldmine, but they are also very volatile. Pot limit Omaha is like that in general I think.

Good luck with it! And don't take the bluffing too far.

For some education, watch the $2-4 game on pokerstars. It's a very different kettle of fish.

Guy.

[fnurt]

...and, like a true expert, you must make the board pair!

[frenchy]

Bluffs are possible in PLO, even in PLO8, but the game requires medium to big stacks as they generally occur at the river.
In tough (tight) games they are required to win, especially if you dont want to gamble early (pre-flop).
Normally they should be done head's up or 3-handed, but they are possible multi-way.
The key is (1) to represent the nuts when the river card changes it, and (2) to be sure that neither of your opponents can possibly have them due to the betting sequence.

PLO blinds 2 5 (euros), everybody at the table has more than 500.
I'm dealt A [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 6 7 and raise 30 on the button after 3 limpers. The 3 limpers call as well as the BB, 150 in the pot.
The flop come Q [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 5 and every body checks to me. I bet 100 with my nut flush draw and straight draw and I get 3 callers !
Next card is a 7 and every body checks. River is a 4, pairing the board. They check to me, I bet confidently the pot, sure at 100 % every body will pass: I represent the nut full house with my betting sequence (raise before the flop with a big pair and position, bet the queen on the flop, check on 4th when a straight card comes, bet full pot when the board pairs at the river) and i'm sure no one has 2 queens since I've not been raised on the flop; in fact only quads 4 could possibly call.

PLO8 2 5
I raise with 2346 on the button and get 2 callers (60 euros). Flop comes AK5, check to me and I bet the pot, 1 caller (180 euros). An offsuit Queen comes and we both check. A King on the river and he bets 70. I raise full pot knowing he cannot have AK due to his check on the flop. Also his underbet looks weak.
I am representing AK which is very consistent again with my betting sequence (the ckeck on 4th against a possible straight). He cannot call even with J10.

Of course for these bluffs to work, you have to be against logical opponents, and have the proper (tight) image.