HPFAP example, not 3-betting KK/QQ

[kurosh]

UTG raises, 6 people call. You are in the BB with KK/QQ. HPFAP says you should call and bet out on an ace-less flop. Wtf? Does PF equity not matter? Page 167. I don't get it. I would've thought the EV of 7, maybe even 14, extra SBs is worth more than possibly facing the field with 2.

[elindauer]

It's an extreme example of playing your hand to increase your chances of winning the big pot. It's doubtful you can overcome the lost preflop equity since you take the risk that UTG will not raise your flop bet. Maybe if you had, say, AK, and planned to bet out on an ace or king high flop, the argument might be better. KK has such a huge equity lead, as you point out, that it's probably better to get the money in pf.

my 2 cents.
eric

[afish]

When the loose games section of HPFAP was added in 1999, there was a good deal of criticism of it. I think there is just a lot of questionable advice in that section, and this advice falls into that category (especially with KK). Now, if you had JJ, it would be closer. The concept of enlisting a preflop raiser to raise your flop bet and get people out of the pot is good; the example is not.

I think Small Stakes Hold'em is what the "loose games" section of HPFAP aimed to be.

[ggbman]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG raises, 6 people call. You are in the BB with KK/QQ. HPFAP says you should call and bet out on an ace-less flop. Wtf? Does PF equity not matter? Page 167. I don't get it. I would've thought the EV of 7, maybe even 14, extra SBs is worth more than possibly facing the field with 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

I imagine this would be an egregious error with QQ. With KK it's just [censored] stupid.

[La Brujita]

I made a long post in the books forum a while back about how this was a mistake. I think I finally got Mason to admit he "might" raise with KK.

I got frustrated because he wouldn't discuss my points on the merits.

I have always disagreed with this part of the book too. The problem with utilizing this strategy besides the obvious(you pass up on all that preflop money) is that the initial raiser may easily not raise when you bet into him on the flop. There is a time I will pass up on a reraise with QQ's or AKo however, and that is when I am in the blinds and many people limped in and a late position player raises, I like just calling in this situation to set up a nice checkraise that will increase my odds of winning a large pot significantly and this makes up for the money I lose preflop IMO, The difference between this situation and Mason's example is that Preflop raisers tend to autobet alot when they are checked to(especially online) so the checkraising strategy has a high probability of working, but if you bet into a preflop raiser and there are alot of people behind him hes usuallly not gonna raise unless he has a hand. Also with KK or AKs, I will never pass up a reraise preflop for strategic postflop reasons, although I agreed with the recent twoplustwo magizine article on just calling with AKs in that example, but that situation is rare enough that I dont worry about it.