AQo in the middle (ugly, awful, and disgusting)

#1 11-13-2005, 01:42 AM

First hand at table so no reads here either.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP3 calls, Hero (poster) raises, Button calls, 1 fold, BB 3-bets, UTG folds, MP3 folds, Hero calls, Button calls.

Flop: (11.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, BB calls.

Turn: (7.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, BB raises, Hero calls, Button 3-bets, BB calls, Hero calls.

How can this be played better? It looks utterly disgusting in hindsight.

ncboiler · #2 11-13-2005, 01:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
First hand at table so no reads here either.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx
Folding the turn is easy. You are behind here. Calling is the last of the three choices.

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP3 calls, Hero (poster) raises, Button calls, 1 fold, BB 3-bets, UTG folds, MP3 folds, Hero calls, Button calls.

Flop: (11.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, BB calls.

Turn: (7.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, BB raises, Hero calls, Button 3-bets, BB calls, Hero calls.

How can this be played better? It looks utterly disgusting in hindsight.

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ncboiler · #3 11-13-2005, 01:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
First hand at table so no reads here either.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx
Folding the turn is easy. You are behind here. Calling is the last of the three choices.

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls, 3 folds, MP3 calls, Hero (poster) raises, Button calls, 1 fold, BB 3-bets, UTG folds, MP3 folds, Hero calls, Button calls.

Flop: (11.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, BB calls.

Turn: (7.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, BB raises, Hero calls, Button 3-bets, BB calls, Hero calls.

How can this be played better? It looks utterly disgusting in hindsight.

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Opps...sorry. I can fold this turn easily. Calling as you did is not an option

BoxLiquid · #4 11-13-2005, 01:52 AM

You played it fine. Your odds look good. It's possible someone might reraise you with king-high flush so you might get to win more when you hit that spade.

Being monkey in the middle sucks you have to be careful before you call a bet because of a possibility of a raise behind you.

EDIT: I misread the hand I thought you called one then button raised. Still I think the turn call is break-even?
He will win 2 more big bets on the river if his card hits.

sweetjazz · #5 11-13-2005, 01:56 AM

I would bet this turn. You have TPTK, no reason to think it's not good, plus the nut-blocker (having the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] means your opponents cannot have the nut flush).

I think BB's check raise is either a slowplayed set on the flop, AK, or maybe TT that was peeling on the flop thinking he might still be good, or badly played KK/AA. So I think you're behind. Button could have a flush, but he could also have a straight or two pair. I think two pair is not too likely though. You have 8 outs (2 of which might -- or might not -- be in button's hand) to the nuts and are likely to at least get river calls if you hit it. Plus you have a gutshot straight draw (3 more outs) that could counterfeit the button if he has 98/K9 and counterfeit half of his pot if he has AK. As it is you ended up putting in 3 BB to try to win a pot with 7.25 + 6 BB in it. That's enough considering the possibility of extra river bets to be made if you improve, whereas you can fold any hand that is beat except if a non-spade K comes and the button does haev the flush (costing you 1 more BB). If you somehow knew that the button had a flush and was going to 3-bet, I think you barely have a fold; any other situation and you have a clear call. That makes it a pretty clear call (and just hope you can see a river before the turn gets capped).

It's an ugly hand, but I think you played it fine. The only thing is that I would generally recommend betting out for value on the turn. It worked out this time, but more often you'll be up against hands that you want to collect bets from. (It's close because of BB's 3-bet, but his two checks postflop suggest weakness and many players wouldn't risk giving a free card if they had hit a strong hand on this dangerous board.)

sweetjazz · #6 11-13-2005, 02:00 AM

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Opps...sorry. I can fold this turn easily. Calling as you did is not an option

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Why? Calling is a great option when you likely won't win the pot but will win it often enough compared to the odds the pot is giving you that you shouldn't fold.

Clearly, our hero is way behind but he's got the nizzie flush draw and a gutshot straight draw that would counterfeit any straight that the button could have.

#7 11-13-2005, 02:01 AM

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I would bet this turn. You have TPTK, no reason to think it's not good, plus the nut-blocker (having the A means your opponents cannot have the nut flush).

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I could bet this turn but I'm hoping it gets checked around because I'm beating nothing somebody would 3bet with. After he 3bets preflop and checks flop I put him squarly on AK/JJ/not as likely QQ.

#8 11-13-2005, 02:04 AM

getting 5:1 with a possible reraise behind you? You call this? Just making sure, I thought it was a good call when I called the two bets as button could be bluffing. I think it's close when looking back though.

You were right though, I made up 2 bets on the river when I made the flush and BB bet his AxK [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Button folded.

olavfo · #9 11-13-2005, 02:05 AM

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Calling as you did is not an option

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Even if the betting is capped between BB and Button, we're getting effective pot odds 15.25 : 4 = 3.8 : 1 to draw to the nut flush, which is 4.1 : 1 against hitting.

Add implied odds, the fact that we might also win with a straight and that the turn will not always be capped (if it's 3-bet, we have effective odds 13.25 : 3 = 4.4 : 1).

I'd say we have enough equity to call BB's raise here.

sweetjazz · #10 11-13-2005, 02:07 AM

Yeah I'm not sure betting the turn is best, as you may be taking instead of giving a free card here. I think that is a sensible range for BB, but you do need to include a 10 - 20% chance that his 3-bet is something bizarre like T9s or 77 or A5. You don't have a read IIRC, and some players do make these odd 3-bets. Still the likelihood of JJ or AK is very high, so checking may be best. Something for me to ponder as I get ready to go to bed... [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]