1/2 nl live KQs to push or not to push

[meleader2]

Hero is MP sitting on ~450$ holding K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

villain 1 is a fish to my left with 500$ and i'm only at this table because i want to get his $. he's been luck boxing all night and i'm value betting his arse off.

villain 2 is 4 seats to my left with (EDIT ~200$) and will raise preflop with any ace.

i limp, fish limps, villain 2 makes it 15$ to go, 5 callers.

flop (71$ after rake):

K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

i check, fish checks, villain 1 bets out 50$, others fold, it's on hero.

i can either donk push my stack, which will push out fish, or i can call and call the fish's all in if he pushes. either way i think i should get it in on the turn no matter what falls.

hero calls, fish calls.

thoughts?

[Percula]

RR the flop bet to something like $150. If the fish has something he will come along for the ride and the PFR will either have to push or fold. If he calls you have decent outs and a good side pot to play for.

1. Any particular reason you don't raise preflop?
2. What was your plan when you checked the flop?
3. It's read-dependent. A lot of the time I'm c/ring this flop all-in, but I'm also calling then autopushing the turn a lot of the time too. With one opponent behind you, I'm probably pushing more than calling.

[elus2]

i raise the flop to 225 and then push the turn.

[meleader2]

[ QUOTE ]
1. Any particular reason you don't raise preflop?
2. What was your plan when you checked the flop?
3. It's read-dependent. A lot of the time I'm c/ring this flop all-in, but I'm also calling then autopushing the turn a lot of the time too. With one opponent behind you, I'm probably pushing more than calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. because of my position, and also my tables image is seen as tight. at least by the opponents that have been paying attention (not many)

2. to check call. if i bet and ace-raising villain comes over the top, i can almost guarentee it's with AK and now my pot odds have been destroyed.

3. i've pushed in the past in this situation and it's lead to bad results. fish folding, winner calling, brick brick i muck.

[ QUOTE ]
2. to check call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think c/ring has to be seriously considered here.

But why did you consider deviating from your plan once you were faced with the bet?

Anyway, if your plan is to c/c the flop, then what's your plan on the turn?

[meleader2]

turn (221$):

[K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

now i'm golden. however, i dislike what i did here:

hero bets 30$, fish minraises to 60$, original PFR folds, hero thinks thinks goes all in, fish folds.

hero wins ~301$.

my thinking:

the 30$ bet is perfect for fish to try to steal. i thought he had something better than a steal (he would've gone all in instead of minraising), so i pushed. in retrospect i feel like i should've raised it up to 150$ total.

[meleader2]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2. to check call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think c/ring has to be seriously considered here.

But why did you consider deviating from your plan once you were faced with the bet?

Anyway, if your plan is to c/c the flop, then what's your plan on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

no no my original plan was to push any turn, not any flop to a bet.

[4_2_it]

I don't mind the smooth call. If villain #2 has AK your push isn't folding him so call and hope he folds so you can get heads up and push the turn. If he calls I still probably push turn especially if the brown trout throws out some sort of under bet.

Do you think the fish will call if you just call? If you think he will, I think calling is definitely the best play. Raising the flop seems standard, but I think if you raise, you're knocking out the fish and villain 2 is only calling you with a hand that has you beat.