Royal flush draw misses almost everything

private joker · #1 11-08-2005, 08:42 AM

Commerce 9/18 (as if there were any other 9/18 games).

A lady in EP open-limps. She's a dealer at Hollywood Park but nevertheless she is a horrible player. I raise in MP with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. The SB and BB (both loose, passive, bad fish) both call, 4 to the flop.

Flop comes down A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

Blinds check, EP bets, I raise, SB calls, BB folds, EP calls.

Turn is 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

SB and EP check, I check behind.

River is Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

SB checks, EP quickly bets. I call.

Tear me a new one.

Nick C · #2 11-08-2005, 08:52 AM

Well, it's consistent, since I'm thinking the flop raise was based on the idea that EP doesn't have to have an ace.

hobbsmann · #3 11-08-2005, 08:53 AM

By horrible do you mean loose passive, loose and randomly aggro, LAG, etc? Outside of the usual loose passives that swim around in the Commerce 9/18 I like calling the river. As far as the rest of hand, well played.

SNOWBALL138 · #4 11-08-2005, 09:02 AM

I think this is a bad call. The pot is small and players with draws don't usually bet into a PFR OOP when an ace comes on the board and the PFR is in a position to made a raise that ruins the price on the draw.

So, this reduces the probablility that you are looking at a bluff.

How about a value bet? Why would they value bet when it looks like you were on a draw? They really want you to fold your non pair spades? Ok, maybe they think you have an underpair and are playing the "my hand is worth a call so I should bet" line.

I think you are looking at a whiffed C/R, a set, QJ for 2 pair or or if they have a draw maybe they have KT. Also, you have to worry about an overcall behind you. Even if you catch a bluff, what are the chances that the player behind you won't call with her ace rag?

I say fold fold fold fold fold.

Were you watching her put the money in the pot. You said she did it quickly. What does that mean? Did it look like a bluff? Did she have a lot of chips? What did her betting motion tell you?

I think this is often a fold in a pot this small. Its not that she's never bluffing. Its just that given the little information I have, I'm folding based on the small pot as well as some other things.

onegymrat · #5 11-08-2005, 03:04 PM

Hi Joker,

I know that chick. Asian lady around 50 or so, irritating voice and talks too much. She plays consistent with the average skill of an LA dealer.

I like a bet here on the turn, followed by a check on the river should they call. It just feels wrong to check through when you have that big of a draw. Remember, they can't fold if you don't bet.

I think you're beat here by EP with at least a little ace. Hard to imagine this type of player betting into you with a broadway board and NOT have you beat. Nothing wrong with folding. On paper, posters will see an easy call since you'll probably close the action, but her bet is consistent with something that beats you, especially when she's not afraid of the rivered queen either.

private joker · #6 11-08-2005, 04:54 PM

Jeff,

Actually, the lady is white, with a big nose and a bad complexion. Must be a different HP dealer.

Also, how would you react to a checkraise on the turn from either SB or EP? You still have a big draw, but I wouldn't want to pay 2BBs to find it.

onegymrat · #7 11-08-2005, 05:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, the lady is white, with a big nose and a bad complexion. Must be a different HP dealer.

[/ QUOTE ]Sorry, I read HG (Hawaiian Gardens) rather than HP. Meh, those asian dealers all look alike anyway. [ QUOTE ]
Also, how would you react to a checkraise on the turn from either SB or EP? You still have a big draw, but I wouldn't want to pay 2BBs to find it.

[/ QUOTE ]Well, I wouldn't like it! Yeah, I know, you're still drawing, but checking it through is an invitation for a river bet from EP. The monster that you're seeing only exists in your own hand. I would be more disappointed to have last position and had the opportunity to make them lay down a better hand when the bet doubles, and not taken it. Sure, this chick ain't going to lay down an ace, but keep in mind you still have 11 or 12 outs to hit your hand, barring the 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. This is a great example where having the right image at the right time can win you the hand without a showdown.

As for a check-raise, I would call the raise and only call a river bet with a straight/flush.

einbert · #8 11-08-2005, 05:18 PM

Betting the turn here is really bad.

It's a threeway pot, you're not heads up.

private joker · #9 11-08-2005, 05:25 PM

Yeah, I suppose this river is a fold. I thought there would be times EP would bet a J here, thinking I missed a spade draw. Or maybe she had a draw and just hit her Q, but I have a better kicker. Who knows, at the time I felt it was worth a call, but maybe it's a fold.

Anyway, she had 32o and MHING. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

onegymrat · #10 11-08-2005, 05:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Betting the turn here is really bad. It's a threeway pot, you're not heads up.

[/ QUOTE ]Why? Because you want your opponents to get a free card also? The minute you raised pf the spotlight is on you, and you have to play accordingly. The minute you check the turn you are displaying KQ or some pp under an ace. If you didn't have the flush draw, then a check is correct, but you don't know enough about the EP to do so.