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#1
11-03-2005, 06:39 AM
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Atheists and Agnostics--Would you Change if you could??
Ive Never believed in God.. But I will freely admit that if given the choice between being right and wrong on the matter, I certainly would choose to be wrong on this one. ( Which i guess i obvious for us all)
My question is this...... Is knowlege really power in this instance? I am about as analytical as they come and despite a disease that is slowly deteriorating my mind, still hold an IQ over 150.. Ive ALWAYS viewed this as something to really be proud of, but I would have to say that Knowlege is debilitating in life in regards to faith.. Is there anyone that can honestly say, that given the choice, they would CHOOSE not to believe in god? I see No benefit whatsoever in daily life, in dealing with death, In dealing with loss, pretty much in dealing with anything. Religion may be a fairy tale to a lot of us here, but I will tell you what, the world was a whole lot more pleasant when I still believed in fairy tales and miracles. I will freely admit that if someone could brainwash me, or trick me somehow into believing, I would prefer that over thinking that everyone I love, and myself, will eventually be nothing, have meant nothing and are just rotten flesh. Even if you are like George Washington or someone nobody really cares in a few hundred years. Is it really WORTH a lifetime of fear and knowing impending, eternal doom is coming just to be "in the know". Just curious what you all think, if someone could flip the switch for me, I would take ignorance and stupidity ( only on this subject) over my ego and desire to know the correct answer. ( if one even truly exists). 
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#2
11-03-2005, 07:35 AM
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Re: Atheists and Agnostics--Would you Change if you could??
I may be one of the rare persons that have chosen to not believe in a god. In my deepest sense of self, I can know what I assume to be correct. I'm not sure how he I arrived at this knowledge, but I have none the less. I'm as sure as I sit here today, that I have the belief in god.
But when I look at history, the ways in which that belief caused extraordinary events to take place, I begin to realize that it's not truth. And I refuse to believe in something that I know is not true. What I do know is that if we behave as if there is a God, but not ascribe the dogma associated with the churches of God. The world would be a much better place. To reconcile the two truths that "There is no evidence for God" and "The belief in God can help in trouble times as well as accomplish lofty goals" is a goal worth finding. Perhaps you will decide that you where wrong all along and a personal experience proves that God exists. You may decide to believe in your own personal religion, one that is just between you and God. You may decide that reason and logic is all you need, and shun god. Or you may understand what you are, embrace your human nature and except that death is part of life. The old religions tried to teach us this fact about life. Like a favorite song or a good movie you may wish to read a religious text during the hard times, for comfort not for truth. You have stepped thru a door, and you cannot go back. But if you can temporarily willing suspend your disbelief during a movie for entertainment, certainly you can do it with "God inspired" texts for console. The switch is there, use it if you like.
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#3
11-03-2005, 08:49 AM
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Re: Atheists and Agnostics--Would you Change if you could??
[ QUOTE ]
Is it really WORTH a lifetime of fear and knowing impending, eternal doom is coming just to be "in the know". [/ QUOTE ] A lifetime where brainwashing causes me to worry that I could go to Hell for eternity. Or a lifetime of enjoying life while its there, knowing you have nothing to be scared about death because you won't be able to perceive it has happened. Easy decision. I also wouldn't be handing over control of my life to bishops/priest/insert your religious leader here/etc. Which makes me feel a lot better about being an atheist
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#4
11-03-2005, 11:25 AM
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Re: Atheists and Agnostics--Would you Change if you could??
[ QUOTE ]
I am about as analytical as they come [/ QUOTE ] Normally I’d take that to mean, a) I analyze things as well as anyone. In your case, I’m taking it to mean b)I like to analyze things as much as anyone. Perhaps combined with c) I rely on my analysis (rather than trust my emotions) as much as anyone. [ QUOTE ] I certainly would choose to be wrong on this one. ( Which i guess i obvious for us all) [/ QUOTE ] A very false premise which throws your later conclusions off course. [ QUOTE ] Is there anyone that can honestly say, that given the choice, they would CHOOSE not to believe in god? [/ QUOTE ] Other than the people that had that choice and choose not to? Seriously though, you’ll find plenty of posts that touch on reasons why people would not want to live in the conditions that having faith leaves you in, even if they could magically slip into it. It’s not merely that they don’t believe for logical reasons, they also wouldn’t want it even if they didn’t find it illogical ( impossible, in the case of adamant atheists). [ QUOTE ] Religion may be a fairy tale to a lot of us here [/ QUOTE ] I assume you just mean in the level of truth to the story, it’d be unfortunate if many non-theists treated it as irrelevant as a fairy tale. [ QUOTE ] the world was a whole lot more pleasant when I still believed in fairy tales and miracles. [/ QUOTE ] Either poor wording or poor thinking. You can arrive at experiencing the world as more pleasant with several drug regimes, but neither the drugs or some specific faith you have actually makes the world pleasanter. It does what it does, your experience of it doesn’t change any facts. [ QUOTE ] would prefer that over thinking that everyone I love, and myself, will eventually be nothing, have meant nothing and are just rotten flesh. [/ QUOTE ] Ok, I gotta tell ya, give up on the analysis of situations and switch into hormonal reaction. How you leap from whether religion xyz is true or not to your mother means nothing to you is not analytical. Finding out that the earth is round doesn’t affect relationships and the meaning of them between people ( that’s a false fear that some religions would like others to believe, unfortuately). [ QUOTE ] Is it really WORTH a lifetime of fear and knowing impending, eternal doom is coming just to be "in the know". [/ QUOTE ] A lot of non-believers see that almost reversed to how you frame it. Religion seems to leave people in a life of cowering in fear rather than simply facing the truth. What eternal doom? You’ve taken a religious myth and you’re treating it as a reality. A lot of the spin you put on topics you’ve built from a religious basis and then try and square it with a realist viewpoint … it doesn’t square, that’s one route that many arrive at non-belief from. You’re struggling to hold several concepts at once ( perhaps a result of what’s debilitating you), if there is no afterlife there is no eternal doom, cheeesh. [ QUOTE ] I would take ignorance and stupidity ( only on this subject) [/ QUOTE ] There are several threads that explore whether such a wish is possible. IOW, does lack of rational thought in one area of life indicate it’s pervasive through all areas. [ QUOTE ] Ive Never believed in God. [/ QUOTE ] You led in with that, but then your entire post dealt with specific beliefs of specific religions. That has nothing to do with belief in a god. It’s quite possible to believe in god and not believe anything that the major religions believe. ( a couple hundred years ago a god-based belief was quite common, some founding fathers thought along those lines). luckyme , if I thought I was wrong, I’d change my mind
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#5
11-03-2005, 11:39 AM
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Re: Atheists and Agnostics--Would you Change if you could??
If it was possible to believe in the Judeo-Christian God without suspending the ability to think well, it could of course be worth it. In other words if the worldwide evidence ponted to such a God OR if you had a personal miraculous experience such that the Bayes Theorem would make believing in God the right choice, then great.
In other words being wrong about God, believing in him when he doesn't exist, is not so terrrible. Maybe not terrible at all. But it is terrible to be wrong about things in general. And in spite of the protestations of many on this forum I just don't see how you can nowadays, without a personal miracle, simultaneously think that God is highly likely if you have a world class brain.
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#6
11-03-2005, 12:34 PM
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Re: Atheists and Agnostics--Would you Change if you could??
[ QUOTE ]
I see No benefit whatsoever in daily life, in dealing with death, In dealing with loss, pretty much in dealing with anything [/ QUOTE ] You are in agreement with the wisest man, Solomon, who said in Ecclesiastes: 2"Vanity of vanities," says the Preacher, "Vanity of vanities! All is vanity." (Vanity here means emptiness) 3What advantage does man have in all his work Which he does under the sun? 8All things are wearisome; Man is not able to tell it. The eye is not satisfied with seeing, Nor is the ear filled with hearing. 9That which has been is that which will be, And that which has been done is that which will be done. So there is nothing new under the sun. 14I have seen all the works which have been done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and striving after wind. 17And I set my mind to know wisdom and to know madness and folly; I realized that this also is striving after wind. [ QUOTE ] Is it really WORTH a lifetime of fear and knowing impending, eternal doom is coming just to be "in the know". [/ QUOTE ] Again, Ecc.: 18Because in much wisdom there is much grief, and increasing knowledge results in increasing pain You assess the futility of humanity correctly. The mistake you make is thinking you have to be stupid to believe in God.
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#7
11-03-2005, 01:09 PM
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Re: Atheists and Agnostics--Would you Change if you could??
"You assess the futility of humanity correctly. The mistake you make is thinking you have to be stupid to believe in God."
You do not have to be stupid to "believe in God". You have to be stupid to believe that there are arguments or evidence out there that, should lead one to believe that a specific flavor of religion is more likely to be correct than all the other viewpoints combined.
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#9
11-03-2005, 01:48 PM
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Re: Atheists and Agnostics--Would you Change if you could??
"I just don't see how you can nowadays, without a personal miracle, simultaneously think that God is highly likely"
Hence my post regarding a personal experience of god, an ecstatic experience...most of these believers do not appear to have had a religious type experience that would shed all doubt. Rather, they have been spoon fed concepts and fables, and choose to believe in them regardless of their own experience which shows no evidence of a JudeoChristian deity. -g
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#10
11-03-2005, 01:55 PM
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Re: Atheists and Agnostics--Would you Change if you could??
[ QUOTE ]
And in spite of the protestations of many on this forum I just don't see how you can nowadays, without a personal miracle, simultaneously think that God is highly likely if you have a world class brain. [/ QUOTE ] I agree, but I also don't understand the people who don't believe that God (or just about anything elese) could exist. With light reading of particle physics and cosmology, you realize how little we know about existence.
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