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  #1  
Old 10-28-2005, 02:41 AM
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Default Defending against two pair or set when holding top pair on flop

Say I had AK. I gave a small raise pre-flop. Two other players called.
The flop comes A 8 7
I raise and the two players behind me re-raise.
How do I go about knowing wether someone has entered the pot with 8 7 and hit a two pair or someone has entered the pot with 88 and hit a set. What's the correct play regarding this decision? Should've I raised more before the flop? Or should I lay this hand down with the raises behind me or should I pay them off?
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  #2  
Old 10-28-2005, 04:25 AM
Benholio Benholio is offline
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Default Re: Defending against two pair or set when holding top pair on flop

Top pair against one raise = you might be in trouble.
Top pair against two raises = you are definitely in trouble.

How much should you raise preflop with AK? Same amount you would with AA/KK/any other hand you raise with. A good guideline is 4 times the big blind, plus 1 extra big blind for each limper.
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  #3  
Old 10-30-2005, 01:53 AM
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Default Re: Defending against two pair or set when holding top pair on flop

So if I've raised before the flop with AK and been called by two people and then after the flop (K 8 7), they've raised me and I have top pair with ace kicker, is this a hand that I should lay down fearing a two pair (8.7) or a set?
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  #4  
Old 10-30-2005, 02:02 AM
NYCNative NYCNative is offline
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Default Re: Defending against two pair or set when holding top pair on flop

[ QUOTE ]
Say I had AK. I gave a small raise pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]Don't make a "small "raise. Make a standard raise - at least 3x BB and maybe more depending on position, limpers and how the table and/or that site at those stakes respect raises.[ QUOTE ]
The flop comes A 8 7
I raise and the two players behind me re-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]Your terminology confuses me. If you lead at the pot, you "bet." You cannot raise unless someone else bets first. Did you "bet" and get raised and then three-bet or did you bet and then get raised?[ QUOTE ]

How do I go about knowing wether someone has entered the pot with 8 7 and hit a two pair or someone has entered the pot with 88 and hit a set.

[/ QUOTE ]You don't know, however the more villains there are, the more likely that someone is beating your one pair. That said, I have seen cases where both villains have weaker Aces at small stakes.[ QUOTE ]
What's the correct play regarding this decision?

[/ QUOTE ]Depends. [ QUOTE ]
Should've I raised more before the flop? Or should I lay this hand down with the raises behind me or should I pay them off?

[/ QUOTE ]I think you should have raised more pre-flop than "small" (even though you didn't define what "small" was) and I think that how far you go with this hand depends on your reads and how much money there is. Also, you could be against a draw or two here - is there a flush draw? Someone with a suited connector could be on a draw - I love to play T9s even in raised pots.

Like anything else, whether you go broke with this hand or not depends on your reads. However, if your PF raises are healthy, you find yourself in less situations like this. It all starts PF.
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  #5  
Old 10-30-2005, 02:51 AM
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Default Re: Defending against two pair or set when holding top pair on flop

I agree small raises are generaly a bad idea because they do nothing to help you read your opponent. If you are going to raise, make it healthy (4x BB or more for limpers). If solid players call you, you know what your up against, and with large raises even weak players tend to throw away unreasonable hands. (such as 7-8). However many weak players will play ace-rag even for a raise. Generaly, if your top pair gets re-raised its almost always dead. For only a raise, it comes down to reads. Would THAT oponent raise you with top pair? Are they an agresive tricky player? Keep in mind many players check-raise a set into the PF Raiser
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  #6  
Old 10-30-2005, 03:58 AM
Dennisa Dennisa is offline
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Default Re: Defending against two pair or set when holding top pair on flop

[ QUOTE ]
So if I've raised before the flop with AK and been called by two people and then after the flop (K 8 7), they've raised me and I have top pair with ace kicker, is this a hand that I should lay down fearing a two pair (8.7) or a set?

[/ QUOTE ]

Out of position, with tptk in NL, I'm not a happy camper. More often than not its an easy fold back to me. I would take a look at stats, but with this kind of betting, all of the money is going into the pot. For this reason, I play AK about 50% of the time as just a limp from early position. Since I have atleast one more decision in the hand from early position, I want a smaller pot post flop. Then I can make my standard 2/3 - 3/4 pot sized bets with a smaller pot.

Dont underestimate position in NL. and yes I love to play small pairs and suited connectors in position for a 4x BB raise. I think more often than not you are up against the big hand in nl.
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  #7  
Old 10-30-2005, 10:30 AM
NYCNative NYCNative is offline
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Default Re: Defending against two pair or set when holding top pair on flop

[ QUOTE ]
I play AK about 50% of the time as just a limp from early position.

[/ QUOTE ]Ugh. That's horribly weak-tight.
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  #8  
Old 10-30-2005, 12:58 PM
afreeman afreeman is offline
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Default Re: Defending against two pair or set when holding top pair on flop

Generally speaking (in the absence of reads), if First Guy raises your opening flop bet, he may be bluffing or have a made hand. If you then get a second raise (correctly called a "re-raise"), then Second Guy almost certainly has a hand.

Think of it this way: Second Guy has the benefit of all of the betting information that has occurred thus far. Knowing that you may call and that First Guy probably will call, he has decided to raise anyway.

What if Second Guy only calls First Guy's raise? Well, that is a bit tougher. Absent specific reads proclaiming your opponent's fishiness, this is probably a fold. Against loose or maniacal players, this could be a call. In either case, pot odds are a major factor.

Also, in 3-way pots, the exact order of the betting is important. Lets say First Guy is a tight passive player (a mouse or rock) and Second Guy is an extremely loose aggressive player. In this case, if First Guy had called your bet and then Second Guy had raised, you might consider a re-raising in an attempt to drive First Guy out and get it heads-up with Second Guy. Since Second Guy is the sort of player that will go to the river with something like second pair or top pair, no kicker, you want to stay with him and only him.
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