How important is...

How important is it to read ToP for a begining player like myself?

I've read GSHE (once) and SSHE (5 times) and was looking in to buying ToP as well.

Also, when should I read Hold'em for advanced players? Do I need it for micro limits up to 3/6?

Thanks.

[Piper Tim]

There was a question about HEFAP in another forum, probably books so you might want to look there for more information.

But, that really doesn't answer your question. How important is it for a beginning player to read TOP?

Answer: It depends. I am sure lots of folks say it is a requirement and others will dispute that. They are all right or wrong, depending on how you want your outlook.

The real question is how do you learn best and will TOP help you?

To answer this, I've put a few questions for you to consider. There are other factors as well, these are just a few.

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Do you need big picture mostly, details mostly, or both?
[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Do you make linkages between information easily or is it challenging?
[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Do you enjoy reading?
[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] How experienced do you consider yourself in relationship to the books you are reading (do you get and can you apply many of the concepts)?

If you like the big picture or both, then you may want to consider reading TOP. It provides overarching concepts and ideas in which SSHE and GSIH fit. It is an excellent book and is one that I have read and reread because of the level of concepts it presents.

If you are really a details man and the big picture can create confusion, then you may not want read it now. The books you mentioned give enough conceptual information to play Hold em.

If you make linkages or connections between information easily, then you may want to read it. You will be able to create connections between SSHE/GSIH and TOP as well as between the books and your experience pretty easily and you will benefit from TOP pretty quickly as your understanding deepens.

If you have a hard time making connections, then you may want to wait a while and create the connections between experience and the books you already own.

When you play, are you aware of your metacognition? This will help you evaluate the value of what you read in relation to your experience.

I think you can see the thought processes behind answering the questions.

I really believe it does not boil down to "Do I have enough experience to read XXXXXXX, but rather will reading this book help me improve based on how I learn?" When somebody says "Don't read XXXXXX because it will confuse you" what they are really saying is "XXXXXXX is meant for playing at a higher limit and some of the tactics and strategies may not apply at your limit, which would have confused me when I was where you are now." By the same token, the you should read posts should be viewed through the same lens.

This is not to say the the recommendations of the experienced players are not valid. They are extremely important and can give a lot of insight into a particular book and how it could be a benefit to you. But, you have to consider how you fit into the equation.

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]
How important is it to read ToP for a begining player like myself?

Also, when should I read Hold'em for advanced players? Do I need it for micro limits up to 3/6?


[/ QUOTE ]

Piper Tim's self-reflective questions are great.

I think TOP is an important book, and I return to it regularly. However, from a nuts-and-bolts, hold'em perspective, the two Ed Miller books cover what you really need. TOP is great for a bigger overview, but don't be taken too aback by the fact that not that many examples use Hold'em but rather stud, razz and draw - not that it matters, but it could take some getting used to.

In my opinion, HEPFAP is a very important book. Every serious player should read it. Yes, the games they are describing are much tighter than your average low-mid limit game these days, but the discussions are still worthwhile and you will find information that is applicable to the lower limit games.

It's sort of difficult to answer this question since when I started studying poker the only really good books on the subject where TOP, HEPFAP, a couple other 2+2 titles and WLLHE. I started with TOP and HEPFAP which was pretty daunting.

Anyway, these are both books are important and should be read.

Regards,

T

Thanks guys [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Tim gave you a great response. TOP is a great book - I've got about 75% of it read. I just read through HEPFAP. My suggestion would be to study SSHE and understand everything in there before the others. TOP is great if you want further description of specific topics, but for low limits SSHE has got it covered. AS you move up, I ouwld definitely read all of them though.

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
How important is it to read ToP for a begining player like myself?

I've read GSHE (once) and SSHE (5 times) and was looking in to buying ToP as well.

Also, when should I read Hold'em for advanced players? Do I need it for micro limits up to 3/6?

Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like Tim's response. ToP is very good for big picture understanding. You get to know the "whys" not just the "hows" when presented information. This will help you in understanding of the game later on. ToP is ALWAYS applicable, though you may misapply it in the beginning.

Hold'em for advanced players should probably be titled "Hold'em against advanced players." It's really geared towards the tighter, better players than you'd find at a live 3/6 game, though I do find those types of players there as well occasionally. SSHE will help you crush the really, really loose micro games, whereas HEFAP helps you more with tighter, better players.

[AKQJ10]

Excellent post. I especially agree with this paragraph, but also with the rest:

[ QUOTE ]
I really believe it does not boil down to "Do I have enough experience to read XXXXXXX, but rather will reading this book help me improve based on how I learn?" When somebody says "Don't read XXXXXX because it will confuse you" what they are really saying is "XXXXXXX is meant for playing at a higher limit and some of the tactics and strategies may not apply at your limit, which would have confused me when I was where you are now." By the same token, the you should read posts should be viewed through the same lens.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now i just have to learn what metacognition means. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I actually think I spurred my poker growth my actually reading TOP first. The reason behind that is because I didn't really grasp all of the concepts, but were still trying to apply them to my game. In my opinion TOP should be read after the player gains experience then reading the book would make a lot more sense.

[Felipe]

TOP is a good book. It'll help you understand fundamental concepts inherent in ALL varieties of poker.

I think it is quite essential if one is playing in tough games. Perhaps 10/20 hold'em or higher. At 3/6, you can still with Miller's books. They are very good. TOP strategies are best used against thinking players - players that know what semi-bluffs are. Players that play smart, tight and aggressive. Against weak players, ABC poker will do it - that style is found in Miller's works.

blah
felipe

[bholdr]

Here's the simple answer: It sure isn't gonna hurt to read ToP and HEPFAP, and they should pay for themselves quickly.