AAKK Post-flop against LAG and LP

Party $25 PL Omaha
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 10
HJ (Villian 2): ( $42.95 )
CO: ( $21.60 )
B: ( $18.40 )
SB (Hero): ( $57.35 )
BB: ( $11.35 )
UTG (Villain 1): ( $25 )
UTG+1: ( $13.05 )
MP1: ( $32.30 )
MP2: ( $77.15 )
MP3: ( $21.80 )

Villain 1 is loose passive. Limps into 80-90% of pots and calls most preflop raises if he has already limped.

Villain 2 is an extreme LAG. Pots every hand preflop in any position if folded / limped to. Table has been somewhat tight w/ preflop play due to his raising every hand with the exception of villain 1 who recently lost several large pots to villain 2. Villain 2 follows up every preflop raise with a pot sized flop bet if checked to. If bet into, calls if he has any chance of improving, even if it’s not to the nuts, i.e. recently called all in raises with low flush draws.

Hero is SB w/ Kc Ad Ac Kh. UTG limps and folds around to Villain 2 who doesn’t break his pattern and raises to 1.10. Folds to hero who re-raises to 3.70. Both villains call.

Flop [ 3s, 5h, 3h ]
Hero bets $11.10, Villian 1 raises to 21.20 (all in), Villian 2 calls, Hero calls.
Turn [9c]

Hero???

Comments on flop play?

[ThePortuguee]

If Villain one is loose-passive and shoved over the top of your flop bet, he has a three or fives full, so you're usually drawing slim to that part of the pot. Your flop bet is fine but I dont think you can call with only four outs to an overboat, even with three to one. After the strength you showed preflop (You obviously have AA, almost no one repots without AA), he knows what you have, he doesnt expect you to fold it after you flop bet, so when he shoves, you're beat. You had a great starting hand, yeah, but throw it in the muck.

BUT, now that you're at that point, pot the turn. You may as well try to save face and get money from Villain 2, and you're probably ahead of him. Since Villain 1 probably has a three you're getting good odds that Villain 2 doesnt, and it sounds like he could have anything from flush draw to another overpair like QQ, JJ, etc. You're not really worried about him catching a weird two pair like 9-5 or 9-J because you have A's up, so pot the turn.

THe exception would be if you think Villain is so aggressive he'll fire into a dry sidepot with nothing, in which case you can check-call or check-shove. I find that players this aggressive usually have some clue what they're doing, though, so I think potting turn is better.

As an aside now that I think about it, if you're very confident that Villain 2 is goign to put the rest of his stack into a side pot with a worse hand here, then you can call Villain 1's raise profitably. The problem is that its just too hard to win big pots with AA unimproved, so you have to have a strong read on the guy as a maniac that you think he'll shove his stack in there with QQ or JJ. I have, however, seen it done.

[kurto]

regarding maniacs in general.... I think you give many of them too much credit. A real maniac will bet on any paired board, any flush board, etc... because they know if you don't have it, you probably have to lay down.

I don't agree that the maniac has to have a 3. He very well COULD have a three... but he knows the OP doesn't have one, so he feels its a safe bluff. Whether or not the maniac has a 3 would not change his play.

[TheRempel]

If you call the flop, push the turn and hope he calls. He is drawing here most of the time.

[Tilt]

Preflop, don't reraise. Getting further committed against a maniac out of position and revealing your hand is losing more money than you theoretically gain by getting a few dollars in early with the best starting hand. In LP I would reraise, but I would do so with more hands than just AAxx.

On the flop, I think smashing in pot sized from 1st position into that paired board is bad. Bet less, 1/2 the pot will do, you will get the same information. Calling his all-in is worse, you got the information you were seeking, and lo and behold he has a 3! Thats an awfully big crying call.

I think once you make that flop call you are shoving the rest in hoping to get the remainder of the maniacs stack in a sidepot. But the train left the tracks ages ago by the time you get to this decision.

While its possible that they are such total donkeys that your hand is good here, thats not the case often enough to warrant this reckless play. If they are you can usually get their money with a lot less risk.

[kurto]

I think there are problems with this line of reasoning...

Basically, a maniac will bet with anything and nothing. A real maniac will bet any paired board, any monotone flop checked to him....

If you're going to fold everytime there's a pair on a board because a maniac bets it... then he will constantly outplay you.

I realize they're different games, but at somepoint you are going to have to make a stand with well less then the nuts. Otherwise, all he'll have to do is bet and reraise you all the time and you'll concede every pot that's not the nuts.

If he never does this, then he has a 3. But most maniacs I see will do this with nothing more often then they'll do it with a 3.

[Tilt]

I agree, I'd call the maniacs all-in here, but he wasn't the one who pushed. The loose passive (and somewhat tilted) player did.

Yes, the LP threw his chips and the maniac just called, leading me to believe he was trying to take one off to make a flush. I had the ace of the suit but he wouldn't lay down a smaller flush in a pot that big, so I figured if a non-heart turn came I would push and try to suck his chips into a side pot. Assuming that my initial flop bet is already in, is it better to safely fold behind the LP's raise and LAG call or to try and beat the LAG in a side pot when a non-threatening turn card hits?

[Tilt]

Just push the flop at that point.

[ThePortuguee]

First of all, Tilt, tahnks for pointing out to Kurto that the loose passive player shoved, not the maniac, Ive been away and only read the posts now.

Second, Tilt is correct. If your plan is to continue with the hand I think the shove on the flop is right. You´re basically reading maniac for draw so shove. You cant call and then plan to muck to a bet on a scary turn. Get some positive EV from the hand and get maniac to call with his draw. If you dotn shove there, definitely pot a safe turn.