Some AK thoughts.

Stealthy · #1 10-21-2005, 08:21 AM

I have given some thought to the wonder hand that is AK. This was after a 2000 hand day yesterday which saw AK as a big looser a lot of which was me down to chip spewing with it somewhat. Here are some thoughts as to how I think I can play this hand in certain situations. I would have saved quite a few BB if I had adopted these lines yesterday I think. All considerations are for when we miss the board entirely as when we hit it is somewhat easier of course.

1. OOP V 1 player - Bet/call flop, bet/fold turn, check/fold river. There are times when we need to check/call river if we consider there is a decent enough chance that our Ace high is good, more so against an aggressive player than a passive one. But check/fold river is the main line against most micro players I think.

2. OOP v 2 players - Same as above except that river will nearly always be a check/fold even with only one left by then.

3. OOP V 3 or more - The pot will be on the large size so we don't want to be over timid here. Betting out on the flop may be the best line but with an agro player in LP a check-raise may be in order to free up some outs. Any other draws we have going for our hand makes this even more important. With a TAG on our left who will either raise or fold the flop then betting out will nearly always be best IMO.

On the turn our pot equity may be quite low and we may be in check/fold territory unless we have got it down to heads up when we might fire again. Only really possible if he only called 1 bet on flop or is the LP bettor as if he called 2 cold he isn't going anywhere.

4. OOP v lone maniac - Whether we look him up or not when he raises our flop bet is very situational but often needs doing. Of course if we make our hand we punnish his LAG tendancies big style.

Note I had on this guy before this hand 'bets & raises light on all streets' his stats were something like 60/31/5

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 2 folds, MP2 3-bets, 5 folds, Hero caps, MP2 calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP2 raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, MP2 3-bets, Hero calls.

River: (12.75 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP2 raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 16.75 BB

In only realised when retrieving this hand that I had not 3 bet the flop. My one mistake I think. I put him on a smaller King and felt reasonably sure of my hand when the board paired.

These are my initial thoughts on OOP play but feel free to destroy them and come up with better lines. I am a newbie to limit and no nothing really. Please use my same numbering if you wish to contradict any points.

I will post my in position thought later when I have more time. Sadly back to work for me now. Sorry for any typos I had very little time to do this.

#2 10-21-2005, 08:53 AM

I don't play overcards well either.

I've just got to get an answer to this question. I've heard a few people say this and it's been confusing me for a while.

How is it possible to clear outs for AK?[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

The only time would be Ax or Kx where x is bottom or second pair. This seems to be getting a better hand to fold, which to me is different from clearing outs.

This is a legitimate question.

Stealthy · #3 10-21-2005, 10:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't play overcards well either.

I've just got to get an answer to this question. I've heard a few people say this and it's been confusing me for a while.

How is it possible to clear outs for AK?[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

The only time would be Ax or Kx where x is bottom or second pair. This seems to be getting a better hand to fold, which to me is different from clearing outs.

This is a legitimate question.

[/ QUOTE ]

You essentially have it right. Clearing outs is getting a better hand than yours to fold.

Say you decide to check-raise the button with your unimproved AK. You check, MP1 checks, MP2 checks and the button bets, you now raise. What you are trying to do is to get rid of MP1 and MP2 as they are now faced with calling 2 cold. Now say MP1 has A5 and MP2 has K8 and the board on the flop is T 5 8 if they both fold fearing that you have an overpair or a ten, you can now win the pot if an Ace or king comes which you would have lost if they had not folded. You have effectively bought yourself the AK outs that you did not have had they stayed in.

My first post was very rushed. Just going for a big edit!

Stealthy · #4 10-21-2005, 11:07 AM

Can't edit it anymore so some additional thoughts on OOP play.

1. above

If we do catch a card on the flop or turn then we can extract more off of the more aggressive players who can be relied upon to bet if checked to. A line I tried with success a couple of times yesterday was when heads up to bet the flop and check the turn into such players. They would bet and I would check-raise them getting an additional BB out of the hand. This may be standard I don't know. This is me just learning.

3. above

The pot may still be large enough if there are still a lot of players in and the flop was raised to see the river for one more big bet. Although the odds may still be there, 14-1 if I remember right, you are probably still better of check/folding I think. Our draw is very weak and we are likely staring at reverse implied odds should we happen to spike in particular an Ace. With the presence of additional outs such as a gutter then we could well be getting the right odds to pay one more BB to see the last card.

I have tried to find a line in each situation whereby we can make the most when we are ahead and lose the least when we are behind. I would hope that a lot of times when we miss we can see the river for just 3 small bets. Whereby we can often make 7 small bets when we have the goods.

Somebody tell me how close or wide of the money I am on my understanding!

bozlax · #5 10-21-2005, 11:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Clearing outs is getting a better hand than yours to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, no. Getting a better hand to fold is often a positive result of a semi-bluff, and frequently solves a reverse-domination problem for you, e.g. you're holding AK, the board is Q74r, and your c/r gets MP with A4s to fold.

Clearing outs is getting a hand to fold that is not best at the moment, but could improve to beat you, e.g. you're holding AK, the board is Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and your c/r gets A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] to fold. After he folds, all jacks become outs for your ace-high.

Stealthy · #6 10-21-2005, 01:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Clearing outs is getting a better hand than yours to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, no. Getting a better hand to fold is often a positive result of a semi-bluff, and frequently solves a reverse-domination problem for you, e.g. you're holding AK, the board is Q74r, and your c/r gets MP with A4s to fold.

Clearing outs is getting a hand to fold that is not best at the moment, but could improve to beat you, e.g. you're holding AK, the board is Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and your c/r gets A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] to fold. After he folds, all jacks become outs for your ace-high.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will put my idiot hat on and stand in the corner. Dunno what I was thinking as I know damn well what it means! Bad me.