Too Aggressive

[J.R.]

B&M no-limit tournament, 32 players left, 10 get paid. I have T3000, other two players have about T3500 each

Blinds 50-100. Aggressive player, (AP) frequently in pots, opens UTG + 3 to T200, one loose player (LP) calls, I call from the big blind with 2 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] .

Flop: 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img]

I check, AP bets T500, LP calls, I call

Turn: J [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] [9 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img]]

I check, AP bets T1000, LP calls, I go all-in for T1300 more.

Comments? [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img] or [img]/forums/images/icons/blush.gif[/img] or [img]/forums/images/icons/cool.gif[/img] ?

I will post results and my thoughts later today, thanks in advance.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Sounds like a fine play to me. You'll often be ahead, and when you're not, you've got up to 10 outs to get there.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[-Oz-]

Too agressive? Maybe on the flop, too passive! [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

I think I'd check-raise the flop to ~T1500, beleiving I'm ahead. Make non-nut str8 and spade draws think twice about continuing. Otherwise, waiting for the turn is OK too, if your intention is to see if another spade hits so that you can proceed more cautiously.

Once it doesn't, I think I'd lead into them all-in rather than trap, just in case someone just made a str8, so they can make a "good" laydown. The way you played it, both players are pretty much forced to call with their flush draws, even though only one of them may be good.

And like Greg said, you still have 10 outs if called.

-Oz-

[J.R.]

Thanks for the comments.

I put the raiser on a big pair or overcards with a spade and the caller on a pair or a flush draw. Expecting these players to be willing to call a big raise with just a draw on the flop, I wanted to see what the turn brought so I could either get away from it or put my money in as a bigger favorite against a flush draw.

I agree I should have moved in when the non-spade fell on the turn, but I got greedy and wanted to ensure I got callers, afraid they might fold to a pot sized all-in. I realize this is fuzzy thinking that is inconsistent with my earlier read of my opponents' ability to call big. In part I guess I also wanted to see what the caller did to gauge whether he chose to slow-play a flopped flush. It was my impression that slow-playing was rampant at my table.

I have found myself making riskier plays multiway plays with the feeling that I will put myself in a position to succeed or be done with the tourney. I believe this may be correct later on if I am an average or low stack and I am in the money or perhaps close to it, and am now stressing survival early on. Comments on whether this more patient approach is correct, and when the risk-taking should begin?

Needless, both players called. The river paired the J, they both checked, the open-raiser showed a surprising Ks Ts for the second nut flush, the other player looked at me and noded, I tabled my full-house and threw a high five to my friend who was sweating me, only to see the other player roll over Jd 9d for a bigger full house. Nothing like a slow-roller. Thanks for you input.

[SoCalPat]

I love flopping bottom set. It's easily disguised, and with someone holding AK who has only one pair on the flop, it's a hand that can punish people.

If you lose to set over set, the money you'll make when your hand is good (frequently) will dwarf the money you lose when up against a bigger set (very seldom).

Now, on to your post.

Yes, you have as many as 10 outs available to you to improve. In hindsight (and again, thanks for the post, because it's allowed me to think this situation through), you had significantly less.

The LP's smooth call of the AP on the turn should scare you. He has to have something better than top pair or an overpair with this board. Don't all LP's like betting their top pair, OK kicker? That's exactly what he did on the flop. And who's to say he didn't already have two pair (or a flush, but that's irrelevant, because were talking about what you need to beat a flush).

When he smooth calls the big bet on the turn with a three-flush on the board, it can mean only one thing: He has at least two pair, or perhaps a bigger set.

With that in mind, your outs are severely reduced, since if you make a full house, you can't possibly beat another full house.

Say we know the LP has J9 on the turn, and you're counting on the board to pair up to win. You can immediately discount six outs, leaving you with four outs (the case 2 and the three 7s. And who's to say AP isn't holding A [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] offsuit 7 and is semibluffing?)

If he has JJ (an unlikely situation), you have but one out: the case 2.

Given the betting to this point, you have a clear case for calling -- in a heads up situation. But against two players, there's a good chance not all of your outs are there. Next time I'm in this position with bottom set and a three-flush on the board, I'll give strong thought to folding. Sometimes, calling isn't as clear as it seems to be.

Again, thanks for the post.