JTs and JTo and connectors in general

Dommer · #1 10-11-2005, 07:34 PM

Was going through my PT stats today and I realized that I don't think I've ever seen JTs and JTo as profitable. I started a new database recently but even in my old database of 150k hands they were negative. That goes for all suited connectors and connectors as well. Is anyone profitable with these hands long term? If so what are your strategies?

I don't really have much of a strategy with them, I just call when its multiway, sometimes in position sometimes not (depends on how multiway it is), and try to hit the flop (draw/two pair or better). I never play them for 3xbb+ raises heads up or even 3 way but I will sometimes call min raises from the blinds or if I think the player is really bad. I'll generally call a pot bet on the flop if I hit a draw, but will stop calling if they pot it again on the turn. I don't really bluff with them and don't really play them for pairs although occasionaly I will.

So is it normal for them to be negative or what?

Allinlife · #2 10-11-2005, 08:07 PM

I'm shy to say that I have the same problem...I think main problem with me+SC's are FPSING when missing flop completely and calling raises OOP HU.

Dommer · #3 10-11-2005, 08:13 PM

Well I don't have that problem, I really just try to hit the flops, and I never call with raises with them heads up. They still don't make money though [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

xorbie · #4 10-11-2005, 08:18 PM

Hmm.. I'll check my database later when my computer is working, but I call 3xBB raises all the time with suited connectors if I have position.

Ghazban · #5 10-11-2005, 08:20 PM

I actually really dislike JTs and JTo in no-limit. They make a lot of 2nd best hands when other good starting hands hit the flop better. For example, if the flop comes KQx and you have JT, you've got a straight draw which is nice but people play a lot of face card hands so it probably hit somebody else, too, and you won't get to draw cheaply. If you flop a good made hand (say, JTx), you can face a lot of heat from draws and not know if you're good or not (does this guy have bottom set? Is he raising a straight draw? etc.). JT on a T62 flop isn't so good, either, as you've got top pair but it might cost you a lot to find out if your kicker is good.

I prefer smaller connectors to larger ones. When I'm playing 65 and the flop comes K65, I can often win a good sized pot from a decent king (of course, sometimes your bottom two get counterfeited, but that's a risk you take). Flops that give me a good draw are also unlikely to hit anybody else hard enough for them to put a lot of heat on. You're also a lot less likely to flop top pair and lose money to a kicker problem.

Dommer · #6 10-11-2005, 08:22 PM

That makes a lot of sense to me... for some reason I thought JT was a good hand but for all the reasons you've stated I think it's the worst one. Makes sense why its my least profitable suited connector, although they are all unprofitable.

Riposte · #7 10-11-2005, 08:59 PM

What does everyone think about the fact that SC's rely on folding equity to be profitable? Therefore, one would want to be the agressor with a SC, and not the one calling a raise. If calling a raise with SC, your folding equity will potentially be lower... so it might be best NOT to call raises with SC's. In order to get the most out of fold equity, one would need to be the preflop raiser.

Then again, if you flop a big straight/flush draw against a preflop raiser with a big pair, you wouldn't need fold equity because you'd be a favorite to win on the flop against TPTK anyway.

Thoughts?

Ghazban · #8 10-11-2005, 09:06 PM

It depends on your opponent. There are two ends of the spectrum-- guys who never fold to aggression and guys who always fold to it. Against the guys who never fold, all you have to do is flop two pair or a monster draw and you're certain to take all their chips. Against the guys on the other end, you can semibluff with impunity. In reality, nobody is fully on one end or the other so you need to use your judgment to figure out when you can push a guy out and when you'll need to show the hand down. This decision is based on your read on your opponent, what he thinks of you (rather, what you think he thinks of you), and the flop texture. If the preflop raiser tends to raise pairs more than big cards, you can semibluff an A43 flop with 65 and often get a fold as he'll figure you have an ace. If the raiser raises a lot of hands (say ATs+/AJo+/KQ/88+), you would have more success raising your 65 on a 943 flop as its less likely he has anything.

wdeadwyler · #9 10-11-2005, 09:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm shy to say that I have the same problem...I think main problem with me+SC's are FPSING when missing flop completely and calling raises OOP HU.

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling raises oop (which I do) is prob the main cause of this leak.

#10 10-11-2005, 11:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm shy to say that I have the same problem...I think main problem with me+SC's are FPSING when missing flop completely and calling raises OOP HU.

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling raises oop (which I do) is prob the main cause of this leak.

[/ QUOTE ]

I call and limp/call up to 4xBB raises OOP w/ suited connectors almost all the time. I seem to have no problem getting away with it at 25NL 6max. At what stakes will this become a leak? At 25NL I think the implied odds are just so good on stacking TPGK.