3/6 turn donk/scare bet on a semi-bluff

eisanm · #1 10-04-2005, 05:21 PM

Greetings,

I normally play 2/4 although I've been trying out 3/6 for 400-500 hands so far. It scares me.

I just realised that I don't have to be in the micros forum anymore since 2/4 and above qualifies for small stakes forum. Feels great. Like moving up.
Well,well.

I'm going to post a hand. One of the few hands I feel successful about actually making a "move", on 3/6.

I had recently sat down on the table so I had no reads, neither stats on any player.

Here we go.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO raises, 3 folds, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (9.33 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, CO bets, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds.

Turn: (6.16 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP2 calls, CO folds.

River: (8.16 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)

Hero bets, MP2 folds.

I'm going to try and explain my play. I feel it was quite situational.

Turn:
I usually don't donkbet like this, but I've been trying it out when scare cards come and I'm on a draw, having no reason to believe someone else has improves on the scare card.

I'm betting the turn as a semi-bluff with my 8 or 6 out (probably 8) open ended straight draw. But also to represent a 4. If the 4 hadn't come, I wouldn't have made this bet.
Also, if the preflop raiser has overcards such as AK/AQ I can also win it HU if a J or T comes, so I consider myself having quite a few outs.

I figure that if I check, the agressor (CO) will bet it either way so I can just as well bet it myself. I don't expect him to raise, I mean what would he raise with in this situation? Possibly with an overpair. Well, I might be wrong. I think that if he has AK/AQ it will be hard for him to raise here, maybe call at the very most.

River:

The aggressor folds but one caller is with me to the river.
The river double pairs the board making it even more scary so I figure that I should just bet again still as if I had a 4. He could call me down, I don't know. I'm not used to 3/6, and I don't have reads. But the board should look scary to him unless he has an 8.

Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

W. Deranged · #2 10-04-2005, 05:29 PM

Short piece of wisdom:

Don't try this stuff in multiway pots.

One thing you will learn is that such moves do start to become more effective at higher limits, where tighter opponents are more capable of folding hands.

The problem is that, regardless of the opposition, trying to parlay two folds, particularly if such a plan involves having to put in bets on multiple streets, will usually NOT be +EV.

So, I think you got lucky on this one.

There are some excellent thoughts in your post:

-Betting in situations where a bet is going to go in almost certainly but you are very unlikely to get raised is a very useful ideas. It is a good idea to start looking for situations where you can "buy" fold equity without risking chips that you wouldn't normally have to risk.

-Betting out on scare cards, particularly when on draws, is excellent when used judiciously. I read an interesting post in Mid/High today discussing a similar idea: check-raising the turn when the top board card pairs and you are on a draw. At high limits, such a play was described as "almost standard..." namely, it is such a good semi-bluffing situation that it should be done quite regularly. I think one of the faults of many beginning limit players is that they semi-bluff too much. I like to restrict semi-bluff raising at the low and mid limits to situation where I have a particular reason to think my opponent is likely to fold. A scare card coming down is a good example.

Nice post.

krimson · #3 10-04-2005, 05:29 PM

I think this is a pretty bad play. If you really had A4 which you're representing you would more often than not go for a c/r on this non-threatening board. I don't think we're tkaing out a field of players here often enough to be worth it.

Given that you did...

The river bet is okay I guess, you lack showdown value, and MP2 missed the obvious draws. 1 bet to win 8, and is pretty much our only chance of winning this reasonable sized pot.

My line:
pre-flop - I would usually fold this but it depends on the texture of the game. Since I usually keep TAG's to my left, I have no desire to limp here and get isolated.

flop - bet the flop for value, we have two overcards and an oesd. c/c the turn if we miss.

eisanm · #4 10-04-2005, 05:34 PM

//
Edit: I put the results back again. I realised that from my own writing in the OP and from your replies, it's obvious it went well so it will just be stupid not writing it out.
This way people can probably criticize me better, just as one of you did, for trying to make 2 people fold, and for doing it over 2 betting rounds.
Keep it coming,

//

Thanks for your comments so far. As you might see, I have edited the post and left out the results, pretty stupid since I OP'd them and you discuss them, but well...

I'll check this out again tomorrow to see what people have said.

Until then,

sy_or_bust · #5 10-04-2005, 06:07 PM

I like this a lot. The key ideas are 1) you are unlikely to be raised and 2) you don't have to bluff the river. By betting the turn yourself, you can bluff a single opponent on the river much more effectively. You gain equity in a big pot. As long as you're raised on the turn only some small %, this looks very good.

Hybrid_11 · #6 10-04-2005, 08:14 PM

like someone earlier said your bet out on a scare card idea is flawed cause the 4 really is not a scare card if anything thats a good turn for someone playin an ace high.

Im also not sure why you can be safe of no raise because 10's or better raises u here.

like someone else mentioned u just got lucky and this play probably wont work often enough to be profitable

elindauer · #7 10-04-2005, 09:28 PM

I think Deranged summed it up well. I'd add that the trouble with your turn donk bet is that the 4 is not really a scare card. In fact, most players that turned trip 4s would check-raise there, precisely because it is NOT a scary card. The scare card that doesn't complete your hand that you might want to donk bet is a club. Now your bet may look like a flush that is concerned about the scare card getting checked through. This is particularly effective if you have a history of betting this way when you actually have turned a flush.

Good luck.
Eric