Bottom Pair & Nutflush Draw

Ryan11 · #1 10-04-2005, 03:15 PM

Villians first orbit so no real reads. Is this flop play too much? What about the turn check? What is the river play if it doesn't bring a A or [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP with 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, BB 3-bets, Hero calls, Button calls.

Flop: (9.33 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, Button folds, BB 3-bets, Hero caps, BB calls.

Turn: (8.66 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

irishpint · #2 10-04-2005, 03:18 PM

call the flop bet, heads up our flush draw doesn't come in enough, even w/ our 5 2pair and trip outs (and i dont think our 3 is good now). call because we want button in the hand.

how you played it, which i dont like, i think we need to cap his 3bet to try for a free turn card. even if it doesn't work it's not too terrible because, like i said, we do have a number of outs. headsup i'd just rather wait until I hit to put this much $ in.

EDIT: i like the turn check. he isn't folding and we might get c/r. if he had TP (something with more showdown than our 3 here) then i could see betting this for the free showdown if we don't here. but here we're behind, he isn't folding, and we need that card we bought.

wonkadaddy · #3 10-04-2005, 03:38 PM

A3s is a wee bit too weak for my starting stds there.

but once ur there on the flop i think there are 2 ideal lines. call to encourage the button to come in. or raise and cap like you did.

i prefer raising and capping most of the time (ur a small fave against most made hands). if you choose to raise and cap, ur partially doing so to maximize any fold equity you might have, so you have to bet the turn IMO. ur opponent may drop 2 big cards here (woohoo!) and you've still got a gazillion outs and aren't losing much equity even if you get called.

Shawsy · #4 10-04-2005, 03:51 PM

I'm not sure I would have raised the flop, but I don't hate it entirely either. I could go either way. Keeping Button around is good when your flush hits, but your bottom pair is more vulnerable to overcards - Button had something to cold call the PF raise with after all. Raising gets rid of button and gives bottom pair a chance if BB has a big unpaired A rather than an overpair or (worse) set. BB's 3-bet on the flop is a bit scary though. I would have called rather than capping, but the difference is really only one small bet, and you gave yourself a chance at the free card on the turn. It worked out for you and I like taking the free card like you did. BB was just waiting to c/r you.

I would be very surprised if you don't get bet into on the river, regardless of what comes - maybe even if an A or [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] hits. Your checking the turn almost guarantees it. In a way, I hate to call down, but your bottom pair beats AK or AQ which a Loose Aggressive player at these levels could play that way. Maybe I'm too much of a payoff machine.
If BB does check the river, I would just check behind. Is there really a value bet with bottom pair? I don't see it.

sammy_g · #5 10-04-2005, 04:25 PM

I like the flop raise precisely because I do *not* want button in the hand. I want to get it heads up because BB sometimes has a hand like AQ. We are also a favorite against an overpair except AA, so the raise is for value, too.

sammy_g · #6 10-04-2005, 04:32 PM

I like your play to this point. The river is tough. I would probably fold unless I've seen BB get out of line before. Any read?

27offsooot · #7 10-04-2005, 04:34 PM

PF is kind of light. Flop raise is good and if u think free card play will work enough on the opponent and it will for the most part at 3/6, then use it for an extra 1/2 bet.

sammy_g · #8 10-04-2005, 04:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Flop raise is good and if u think free card play will work enough on the opponent and it will for the most part at 3/6, then use it for an extra 1/2 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
You guys are ignoring that we have the most equity in this pot. Also protecting our pair in case it is good is more important than getting a free card.

I agree the preflop raise is a little light.

irishpint · #9 10-04-2005, 04:52 PM

<blockquote>En respuesta a:<hr />
I like the flop raise precisely because I do *not* want button in the hand. I want to get it heads up because BB sometimes has a hand like AQ. We are also a favorite against an overpair except AA, so the raise is for value, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont get it, since we figure to be beat now and are drawing to the best hand dont we want another player contributing to the pot?

Ryan11 · #10 10-04-2005, 05:07 PM

He might be getting out of line with a hand like AQ, AK. I think you want it heads up so that if this is the case your pair of 3s takes it. You might be ahead of Villian here and the Button can fold hands that beat you as well as dangerous overcards.