99 Set hand

swolfe · #1 10-03-2005, 12:41 AM

Played passively on the turn and river. Villain is 20/5/8 over 80 hands.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter

UTG ($22.30)
UTG+1 ($52.05)
UTG+2 ($113.50)
MP1 ($141.80)
MP2 ($46.30)
MP3 ($84)
Hero ($102.50)
Button ($207.95)
SB ($163.25)
BB ($98.65)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
3 folds, MP1 calls $1, MP2 raises to $2, 1 fold, Hero calls $2, Button calls $2, 1 fold, BB calls $1, MP1 calls $1.

Flop: ($10.50) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets $4, Hero raises to $22, Button folds, BB folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $18.

Turn: ($54.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero checks.

River: ($54.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 bets $5, Hero calls $5.

Final Pot: $64.50

RED FACE · #2 10-03-2005, 12:47 AM

I don't think his play makes much sense except maybe AK diamonds and he hit the wrong button calling your big flop raise. Otherwise, his river bet looks like he's just... no, it doesn't make sense to me.

amoeba · #3 10-03-2005, 12:53 AM

I approve.

orange · #4 10-03-2005, 01:04 AM

I think you are far ahead of most of villan's holdings. But raising really won't get you anywhere- I think this is fine.

swolfe · #5 10-03-2005, 09:57 AM

Villain had A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and MHING

beset7 · #6 10-03-2005, 11:38 AM

Did his stats alone make you sure there was no value bet on the turn? I know you are the turn checker and all but i think you miss value checking the turn here against the avg. tight passive player in this game who plays squeeky tight preflop and then can't lay down top pair.

amoeba · #7 10-03-2005, 11:44 AM

if you are value betting the turn then you have to also value bet the river after he calls. I just don't find it that often that I get TPTK to call value bets on two streets when the flush completes.

if you are going to check behind on the river after betting the turn, then checking the turn is the superior move.

beset7 · #8 10-03-2005, 11:48 AM

well put. i bet the turn a lot more then i should probably.

what do you do with more aggressive players who when they see you check the turn are going to lead for the full pot on the river with any two? These beasts are rare but against a more aggro player if you want to show it down, doesn't the cheaper line become bet the turn and block the river (folding to a push/etc)?

Riposte · #9 10-03-2005, 12:00 PM

Should one play the hand like this since the board is kind of dangerous with a potential flush and straight out? Once the diamond fell on the turn were you looking for a cheap showdown then? Basically I'm just wondering what your and others' thought processes were when checking behind on the turn. What if you were bet into on the turn... fold?

This hand is really interesting to me because I always bet the turn here hard... which seems to be pretty bad.

amoeba · #10 10-03-2005, 12:04 PM

The problem with the turn blocker is that if villain does anything other than check, you lose more at the end of the hand when you are behind.

say I bet the turn for 1/2 pot, and he calls. by just betting 1/2 pot, youve doubled pot size so that even a 1/3 pot size bet on the river will be 2/3 pot on the turn so really you've dropped 1/2 pot + 2/3 pot when you are behind compared to just a pot sized bet on the river if you check behind. In other words, the amount I save by blocking is not worth what I give up in getting a free redraw or inducing a bluff.

if I check behind on the turn, I'm calling everything up to pot and maybe a bit over.

the only time turn blocker makes sense is if you are facing somebody who'll push the river on you with a gross overbet if you check.

the other downside of the turn check is that you do give something like QJ or any diamond a chance to beat you for free but usually I don't mind losing a small pot for a chance at winning a big one.