Live Game hand: KQo

[DavidC]

8 players, it's fairly loose pf, if I raise I get one or two callers, maybe three, and there's quite a few pots that are 6 or 7 players to the flop. I'm probably second in skill at the table, so these are players that are fairly new to the game.

Blinds are 0.25%/0.5%. Stacks are therefore in the 200 bb range, with myself having about 230 and with the other two players, UTG and SB, having maybe 160-180 at the time.

I'm probably going to make about 5 mistakes in this hand, so please be kind enough to point out as many as possible to me, rather than to stop at "fold pf".

Dealing cards...

UTG minraises, I'm not quite sure what this means. He's a SLAP, with a tendancy to call down quite a bit with some decent hands, but he will also bet. He seldom bluffs, afaik. He also seldom re-raises pf.

2 folds to me and I call with KQo. One call, button folds, sb calls, bb calls.

BB is very very new to the game, as is the guy that called to my direct left. SB seems decent for this group (i.e. he's either slightly better than me or slightly worse, but I can't tell as I'm not very skilled myself), but he seems to be vulnerable to tilt. He's a younger guy.

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Flop: 10 bets, 5 players: KJTr.

It's checked to UTG, he bets half the pot, I call, one fold, sb calls, bb folds.

Turn: Kr, 3 players, 35 bets

SB checks, UTG bets 10. I'm getting strong physical tells from UTG right now: he's got a good hand. I call, SB calls.

I call, sb calls. I don't think that SB would make this call without a made hand.

River 9r, 3 players, 65 bets

Stacks: SB/UTG: Hero:

SB checks, hero hesitates for a second or so, and bets 50, hero calls...

At the moment before calling, my stack was about 210, UTG stack was about 110, the pot was about 115, SB had about 160 left.

Questions:

1) How well did I play the hand so far?
Edit: 1.5) How do I respond to a raise and a call?
2) How do I respond to a push and a call?
3) How do I respond to a raise and a push?
4) How do I respond to a raise and a fold?
5) How do I respond to a push and a fold?

[DavidC]

Also, it's relatively tough to make some of these guys fold post-flop.

How much should I be raising preflop and with what hands (say from EP and EMP, and not necessarily opening in EMP)?

[wall_st]

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SB checks, hero hesitates for a second or so, and bets 50, hero calls...

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I dont understand the river action you called your own bet ? Where did UTG go ?

[Lucky]

Wow, confusing hand to read. If you simplify it a bit and mention dollar amount in pot and bet and each juncture, that will make it clearer, or maybe i've just had too many beers.

Anyway, UTG miniraises and then makes weak bet on flop. Raise it up, lose the other guy. Plan to check on turn, but when K comes, i bet it.

[wall_st]

[ QUOTE ]

Anyway, UTG miniraises and then makes weak bet on flop. Raise it up, lose the other guy. Plan to check on turn, but when K comes, i bet it.

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Why you only beat AA and QQ here ? What would be the point of this bet ?

[DavidC]

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SB checks, hero hesitates for a second or so, and bets 50, hero calls...

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont understand the river action you called your own bet ? Where did UTG go ?

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My appologies. UTG bets, hero calls. This is evidenced by the stack sizes at the moment before making the call, if not by the actual writing of the quoted section of the post.

[wall_st]

1.) I would have repopped the flop, I want to know where I am at and try to control the hand since I have position. If SB calls then checks the turn this is a poorly played set by him. If everyone just calls i poop my pants and am done with the hand unless i make my boat.

I dont know what SLAP stands for, but if it means passive a raise this small from him could very well mean a very strong hand. BUt since he is a moran and only min raised I call pre flop.

When you get to the river you only beat AK and AA, that's it (unless your opponents are idiots and are taking their counterfeited two pair to the river). I might take a free showdown if it is offered (which is if you have controlled the action so far it may very well be). River action is still unclear.

I would have gone something like this:

Raise the flop to like 20, see what happens. If they both call the turn is highly likely to be checked to you, but if someone comes out firing you really need to consider a fold here. If the turn gets checked to you I think the right thing to do is just check and see what happens on the river (it's a way ahead way behind situation and betting does nothing for you). This forces your opponents to give up all the info before the action gets to you on the river. That said if they come alive on the river you need a plan, I am looking to take a cheap showdown but if both go crazy im gone. Does this make any sense ?

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]

1.) I would have repopped the flop, I want to know where I am at and try to control the hand since I have position. If SB calls then checks the turn this is a poorly played set by him. If everyone just calls i poop my pants and am done with the hand unless i make my boat.


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I like this idea. The problem was, on the flop, that I had absolutely no idea what the hell was going on. I mean, I don't know what the guy to my left will do (the new-to-the-game preflop caller). There hadn't been any checkraising out of the BB, but the SB had in the past, and this was a checkraise-worthy board, so I'm not sure what he was up to just yet.

That being said, gaining information early in the hand and taking control of the hand is very important, and this could well be the best plan. Man... it really sucks to have this hand in a multiway pot with deepish stacks!

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I dont know what SLAP stands for,

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Slightly Loose (greater than 20% vpip), aggressive (pfr greater than 5%) preflop, and passive post-flop (post-flop ag less than 1.5ish).

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When you get to the river you only beat AK and AA, that's it (unless your opponents are idiots and are taking their counterfeited two pair to the river).

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I could also be chopping with KQ. You're right that I'm not ahead of much here if he has a normal range of raising hands, but it's tough to tell...

... Since he doesn't bluff very often, though, I could believe it. He also prefers to call with the second nuts than to bet with them.

I don't really see that much that I could be ahead of.

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I might take a free showdown if it is offered (which is if you have controlled the action so far it may very well be). River action is still unclear.

I would have gone something like this:

Raise the flop to like 20, see what happens. If they both call the turn is highly likely to be checked to you, but if someone comes out firing you really need to consider a fold here. If the turn gets checked to you I think the right thing to do is just check and see what happens on the river (it's a way ahead way behind situation and betting does nothing for you).

[/ QUOTE ]

The only thing that betting the turn would do for me is get me a free-showdown. This is something that I might consider doing in LHE, but I'm not sure how it would apply to NLHE.

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This forces your opponents to give up all the info before the action gets to you on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

That makes a hell of a lot of sense!

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That said if they come alive on the river you need a plan, I am looking to take a cheap showdown but if both go crazy im gone. Does this make any sense ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

I'm kinda curious.

I raise to 20 on the flop, SB folds (I know his hand) and UTG calls (I know his tendancies).

There's therefore 50 in the pot on the flop. On the turn, are you checking here? I'm curious.

If so, what sized bet are you willing to fold to on the river?

--Dave.

[wall_st]

I check behind on the turn, assuming the river is the same I am willing to call a reasonable sized bet. I was actually very worried about SB in this hand, you said he is one of the better players at the table, what did you put him on (naked Q i am assuming) ? Anything pot sized or bigger I would consider pretty unreasonable and a sign of extreme strengh.

[Riposte]

I think you have to fold preflop. KQo just doesn't offer much against a raise except broadway straight value. The same goes for QJo, JTo, KJo, QTo, AJo, ATo, KTo. Too easily dominated. I think the fact that he seldom re-raises preflop also is another reason for folding preflop. But I'm sure you know all this... just wanted to offer you more than "fold preflop" [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img].

I hate the board on the flop. I just tried typing out a gameplan for this hand, and it started to make my head spin. You're up against a possibly dominated King, possible two pair, a set, made straight or a straight draw.

I really would consider folding. If we don't fold, I think we have to raise his half pot bet to 15 bets. Fold to a reraise.

The King on the turn makes it even more bewildering, and this is where I end my analysis.