Michigan/Detroit Poker (long)

[JJNJustin]

When Michigan voters passed the casino act, allowing casinos to be operated in Detroit, we had an opportunity for a great poker scene. However, this hasn't happened, and instead Detroit poker trails in comparison to poker in NV, CA, and AC.

I'm going to take this opportunity to really gripe about things I see happening in Detroit and what would really improve Detroit poker. If you agree or disagree, feel free to post.

When Greektown opened its expansion, for a total of 20 tables, they had an opportunity to become the best poker room between AC and LV. However, this did not happen, and a year shortly after, the games are dying out and poker players are flocking to Motor City. Greektown had a monopoly on poker, and management felt that they would never lose business and didnt really care. Poker players were treated like bottom feeders. They were on the bottom of priority list. They felt it. Despite paying a high rake (10% max $5, $16/hr time), they were treated as if management was doing them a favor to have a poker room. Instead of being given friendly customer service, they were treated like degenerates and reprobates. Players felt this and resented it. When Motor City casino opened it's poker room, players who would not be affected by the slight rake increase at Motor City (high limit players) all abandoned Greek Town for Motor City. They refuse to return, most of them with at least one story of unfair management treatment and downright player abuse.

Currently, Detroit poker is divided between Motor City and Greektown. However, it is still in trouble. When Greektown expanded to 16-20 tables from 8, the reason was to accomodate the huge demand for $5-$10 games(it was not uncommon for 4-5 tables 24/7). Presently, however, they are running one or two maximum at either casino. Greektown management has fallen in love with the $50/$100 max no-limit game (which is more like a house game than anything), running 6-8 tables of this and a $3-$6 game which due to the rake is a break even game.

There are only three beatable poker games in Detroit. The $10-$20 at Motor City, the $50-$200 at Motor City, and the large no-limit game at both casinos. The $5-$10 games dont run regularly enough at either casino and are constantly being short handed at Motor City. It is not uncommon to play 5 or 6 handed. Management there is rake greedy and does not effectively lower the rake. Players are paying 10% max $6 + $1 bad beat on a 5 handed game. Management will only over to kill the bad beat and lower the rake to $4, however, players usually end up breaking the game.

No-limit cash games are equally profitable for the casino as limit games with a rake or drag. Both make about $150 hr from the players. However, No-limit cash games are different from low limit cash games in that eventually the skilled players with the big bankrolls win all the money. They can win it alot quicker, as well. I suspect each skilled, shark can eat up at least 10-20 other small, limit players' bankrolls. The effect is simple: it's like releasing 10 huge sharks into a tank of a few hundred small fish. The small fish get eaten alive and before long arent around anymore. This is what has happened to Detroit poker: the small limit players who could subsist on their meager incomes and bankrolls for long periods of time have gotten eaten alive in the no-limit games and have quit playing altogether. So, eventhough the no-limit cash games are just as profitable in the short term for the casinos, in the long term, they are costing themselves huge profits from all the rake that would be generated from the small low-limit games that could run indefinitely. Anyone who has ever run a home game for profit knows exactly what I'm talking about. Would you spread a very high limit game that players could be wiped out within an hour and then have to break the game, or the lowest game possible so that the game would last longer and you could bring-in more rake? The answer is obvious, but somehow, not to Detroit casino management.

Mason Malmuth wrote in one of his poker essays, that fixed tiered betting games remain good and survive, whereas no-limit and spread-limit games eventually die off. He is 100% correct. This is what is happening in Detroit. However, this effect is a little different. The presence of these large no-limit cash games on a 24/7 basis has turned away alot of small limit players and tourists, who would otherwise play and could subsist for longer periods of time. I feel this has been one of the biggest mistakes made in Detroit casino management policy. It is a mistake for us players, who need those small low limit games to make a living, and also for the casino, which will eventually lose tons of rake money. In short, having large no-limit cash games on a 24/7 basis is NOT GOOD for poker.

Now I realize there is a demand for no-limit hold'em, and I view the $50-$200 game at Motor City to be a better alternative. A good player with a $4000 bankroll should be able to subsist in this game, and the bad player may get beat up one night, but probably not wiped out. The no-limit games offerred at Greektown are two horrible alternatives: the $50-$100 which is unbeatable with a $12/hr cut, and this game draws all the remaining tourists and recreational players. These players used to be our bread and butter in the $5-$10 games. The other game at Greektown is the $100 minimum no maximum BIG no-limit game, in which only the best and biggest players will thrive. Tourists and even good low limit players will be eaten alive. I'm smart enough not to play in a game that effectively makes me the same as Joe drunk.

So here is this new poker wave in Detroit, two large casinos with relatively larger poker rooms (16+ tables) and yet poker is bad in Detroit nowadays. It may still be good for the house rake, but eventually they should be able to see the large dropoff in rake they could have earned by not offering this large no-limit game on a regular basis.

In addition, there are many other shortcomings in Detroit poker rooms.

1) In the past, they have offerred games with limits too close together. Greektown currently spreads $3-$6 and $5-$10 concurrently. Almost always, the $5-$10 breaks. They have also offerred $10-$20 and $15-$30. Same thing happened.

2) Going to extremes: not realizing that something be need fixing or correction, but not complete re-doing. I will show this later down the post.

3) Not offering games people want and will play because of rake/time considerations. This is the worst policy employed by Detroit casinos. For example, Greektown used to have a $2-$10 stud and $5-$10 kill O8B. They purposely let those games die out because the rake was very small compared to other games. However, there is a large player base who would otherwise play these games. And they often have empty tables. However, they still encourage people to play $50-$100 max because they generate their $120/hr income whether you win or lose. With empty tables, it would benefit them to spread the other games, even if they had a lesser hourly rate, as long as the tables and players were available. At the very least, they could figure out profitable ways to run these games. For example, why not charge $6/hf hour to play O8B or 7-stud. This would eliminate the "rake shortage" (can you believe I used this term in reference to a casino?) and offer other games for people to play. Even the best hold'em players get tired of playing hold'em all the time. And the message they send by not doing so is horrible: We dont care what you want, we will only offer games which maximize our profits. Smart players hear this message, and get turned off towards these poker rooms and their greed.

4) Player sign-in confusion at Greektown. They used to have a large board with games and lists. The new manager decided this was too much confusion for floor personnel so he invented another system which turned out to be more confusing. Presently, there is no board where you can see where you stand in the wait list. Call-ins are written on a paper list which only the employees see. When you are called to get on a game, you have 15 seconds to claim your seat or you could be rolled to the bottom of the list. This creates anger among players, with no board to see where they are in the list and only a limited time to claim their seat. To top it off, only initials like ABC can be used, and the employees are constantly getting initials wrong. ABC can sound like KDG on a cell phone. Plus, it adds to the informal, unfriendly nature of the room and management. To them, you are just another three letter word. Good poker rooms have boards, where players can see where they stand without hassling the floor personnel. Motor City has Greektown nutted on this problem.

Good poker room also have "want lists" in efforts to tease out whether there is enough desire to play something other than what they offer. Players appreciate this. In effect, the casino is saying, "We are hear to please you, what games do you want" and not "You are hear to please us, you will play what he offer."

5) Comps at Greektown are in the form of $6 garbage food comps. Hot dogs, italian beef (dog food), and other processed sugar/fat goodies. It's better than, but close to nothing. Not good for otherwise inactive people. Again this shows the players how much management really doesnt care. They comp heart-attack promoting food fit for dogs. The inherent message is: we dont care if you guys all croak, you dogs.

6) Good facilities, yet limited tournament access. This has changed recently, with Greektown's $100 +$25 100 man 6-hr tournament. I was shocked at their generousity. Motor City is offering $100+$10 sitngoes almost 24/7 so this is also good. Blind schedules are reasonable. In the past, however, Greektown ran a garbage turbo sitngo. We used to joke that the reason it was called sitngo was because, you paid, you sat, and then you got up and went and played somewhere else. Tournament poker is improving in Detroit, after a long wait.

7) The rake at Motor City is too high. 10% max $6 + $1 bad beat. As aforementioned, short handed play turns this into brutal murder. They think they are being sneaky by keeping two short handed games with this rake. Smarter players wont play. But the suckers do! I have yet to see any decent rake reductions (although Greektown will lower it to 10% max $3 with 7 or fewer players. This is one area which Greektown beats Motor City). I would like to see the competition between the two eventually evolve into "special rake reduction, between 4am and 8am: 5% up to $3." The rake is the main factor that makes all small limit games in Detroit totally unbeatable, whether $5-$10, $3-$6, or $50-
$100. Frustrated with their results, low limit players jump into big no-limit games and get their whole bankroll taken in one night. These players usually dont return to the casino for at least a year. Imagine all that rake lost.

8) Lastly, we used to have a 7-card stud game. The game was $2-$10 spread with no ante. This game died out because tourists would not play in it. Why should they? They stood a much better chance of winning at hold'em, at least in the short run. Detroit needs to understand that the only stud games that thrive are like the ones run in AC, where the betting is fixed tiered, like hold'em. There must be an ante or blind to encourage action and not overly reward tight ass play. I dont think Detroit will ever entertain another good stud game again. Management just doesnt want to bother. And a pity, because there are alot of older men who have built up their fortunes in Detroit playing stud in back room games. I feel the entire problem could be solved by switching to a fixed limit tiered betting struture with an ante or blind in addition to the bring-in. Greektown tried, in vain, to start a $75-$150 high limit stud game on a Saturday after their $2-$10 disappeared. Talk about putting the cart before the horse. It is this stupidity that currently dominates the poker room management in Detroit.

In summary, Detroit poker is 100% rigged.

-J

[JJNJustin]

Summary recommendations for improving poker in Detroit:

1)Reducing available of large ($100 min and $200 min) no-limit cash games to weekends, or possibly once a week (Saturday afternoons) similiarly to the way they spread Pot Limit Omaha once a week.

2) Changing of the $50-$100 nl at Greektown to $50-$200 nl as run at Motor City.

3) Elimination of $3-$6 and $5-$10 games run concurrently. Possibly running a $2-$4 game instead of $3-$6

4) Fair lowering of rake in short-handed games at Motor City
;efforts to consolidate tables and avoid short-handed games

5) Lowering of Motor City rake from 10% up to $6 max to $5 max.

6) Lowering of time charge to $5/hf hr to eliminate odd chips and players making change.

7) Setting up want lists and establishing of a $4-8, $6-$12, or $8-$16 7-card stud with an appropriate ante bet ($.50, $1, etc.),even if this means charging time.

8) Want lists for $10-$20 round by round (Hold'Em/Omaha)

9) O8B offered on a regular basis, even if it means charging time.

10) Reinstating the "board" in Greektown, and abandoning using only initials for sign in, or purchase of a computerized display for lists, such as used at Motor City.

11) Comping system based on hours of play (i.e. players card)such as used by Trumps in Gary, IN.

12) $100 and up sitngoes offerred continously, such as at Motor City, with one table devoted exclusively to this game

13) Weekly larger tournaments, such as the one offerred at Greektown in the mornings.

14) Rake reduction offerred at odd hours (i.e. 4am to 8am weekdays 5% up to $3.)

15) Equipping floor personnel with walky-talky type radios to communicate with the main desk to make them aware of seat openings (they do this in AC, and it is very effective)

[Koss]

Those reasons are pretty much the entire reason I stopped going to Detroit Casinos. Windsor is really no better. Room is much nicer and the staff friendly, but the rake and game selection isn't really worth it. Occasionally they'll get a nice juicy 15/30 game going, but you're lucky if it runs for more than a few hours on a Saturday night.

I've played the 2-10 spread game at Greektown. Absolutely awful. You can't really know how to play a hand profitably because you never know how much you'll have to pay to see the next card. $2, $5, $10, $20. Who knows. I tried it for about 3 hours and it was all I could take.

I've met the guy who runs the room there. He has absolutely no interest in the players, except those playing in the $1000 min no limit game. Everything else is just about keeping tables running and the money coming in.

After about 3 months of trying to turn a profit playing in Detroit rooms, I've given it up and now play only online and home games. I had a brief glimmer of hope a few months ago, when Greektown announce plans to build a new resort. I had visions of a brand new poker room with all the fixins. Then 2 weeks ago they scrap those plans and decide to just add a hotel across the street from the current dump.

I actually heard that the reason Greektown stopped spreading O8B is because a lot of the dealers couldn't read the boards. You've got to be kidding me. O8B is one of my favorite games, and luckily Motor City offers it. It usually starts at 9am Wednesday morning after I've been at work for a couple hours, and breaks around 5pm, right as I'd be getting there. Great.

You're pretty much spot on with everything you've said. I'm just not sure that the demand for poker is enough to keep the games going. No serious player can reasonably keep playing in anything but the highest limits there, and a lot of people would rather play at stakes they can afford. Which means $3/$6 and $1/$2NL where most of the players are too ignorant to realize that they are getting screwed by the rake, and can't really be long term winners. It took me a few months to realize it, but now I'm gone.

I like all your ideas, but I just don't see that fixing any problem. Right now all the demand from players is for small stakes NL games. The Casino offers them games that completely exploit the players, and people flock to them. I just can't see them stopping this anytime soon. As long as people are filling the seats why would they?

[MrDannimal]

- The "Big Game" ($100 min, no max NL right on the wall across from the counter) is the one game that is always running. IT's been that way for years.

- Why would you advocate a $2-$4 game, when you claim that the $3-$6 is break even because of the rake? Wouldn't a better idea be to change the $5-$10 to $6-$12? Never mind that the $3-$6 and $5-$10 have been running together since before the room expanded, so there's no real reason to change.

- I agree that Greektown would be smart to go to a $50-$200 NL like MC, but as it's their most popular game right now, there's no "need" to change (and in a way, it will last longer as fish lose money more slowly).

- If Motor City went to a $5 rake I'd move there, at least as a trial. It's tough to swallow a 20% rake increase, though.

- The $5-$10 at Greektown runs on at least 1 table from Friday afternoon and all weekend. There is usually a 2nd table at night or Saturday afternoon. It's rare to see it play less than 8 handed unless it's ass-late (after last call). They are good about lowering the rake without skipping the JP, though. Also, the game is very beatable.

- The stud game doesn't run because nobody wants to play it. It ran last saturday, and all of the good dealers were a little shocked it got going.

- All of your "want lists for <x>" don't get done regularly because there isn't enough interest (I've seen them call "do we have enough interest" lists and get 5 interested from a list of 20). I'll grant that the lack of interest is born out of the belief that the games don't run, so it's a circular problem. They did spread 5-10 Omaha Hi a while back one night, and it was full with a list.

- Maybe it's the structure, but there's very little interest in stud at Greektown. They run it when they can get enough players to warrant a table. It doesn't happen often.

- The list at Greektown is bad, but not as bad as you make it out to be. You can pretty easily check your position (especially if you're smart/polite enough to wait for the desk staff to not be on the phone when you ask). If you take the effort to "help" when calling ("D as in dog, R as in Rocket, F as in Flower" hasn't failed me yet) you eliminate most of the mis-writing. You still have problems hearing the call-out or even with them reading the tiny letters (for the love of god, at least make the rows taller!). I'm all in favor of moving quickly, though. People who go walkabout when they're near getting called piss me off.

- Sit-n-gos just don't generate enough rake to be worth their time. I think the recently re-started Greektown SNGs are $100+$25, which is ludicrous (especially run alongside the WPT sats which were $150+$10, I believe). At $100+$10, they're making less than a full $50-$100 table even if the SNG only lasts an hour. They're not making enough rake at a reasonable juice, and there's not enough interest at a "profitable" juice to run them continuously.

- I can't imagine the nightmare of watching most of the dealers try to run an O8 game. I'd at least give a 5-10 Omaha or O8 game a go, but be ready for a painful dealing experience loaded with nit-tastic goodness.

- You wouldn't think you'd need 2-way radios in a room that size, but it's amazing how rarely a floor hears a dealer call a seat. Even with the radios, you'd need the floor to be walking around the back of both sides. Very often, they're busy and you'd need to wait to flag a floorperson to get them to radio the seat to the desk anyway.

The main problem right now is that NL is the fad. They spread so much $50-$100 because people will play it. It gives them a chance to feel like they're playing the game they see on TV. You could argue that rooms possibly should play "big brother" to the players and limit the NL games because it's better for the room in the long run, but I'm not sure that's true. I think what will happen is that as the poker boom fades, NL demand will fade with it and it will be replaced by a return of limit play.

The other problem is staff. They're having trouble keeping staff (which is a whole 'nother post). They're bringing in new dealers, and maybe as they "reload" we'll see more games/options. But if you've only got 20 bodies, you can't run 20 games no matter how many people might want a 10-20 round by round.

Sadly, the only way you might see some of these changes (new/electronic board, comp program...) is if population drops. *Maybe* that starts to happen with MC's expansion (which is only open part-time, if I read the billboard right), but with border crossing such a pain in the ass, and Soaring Eagle so far away, there's not really a viable option to Greektown (especailly for smokers!). With a captive audience, and a room that was "useful" even before the boom (and moreso now), what incentive is there to spend money on "luxuries"?

Maybe things will change when they get the "permenant" expansions in place. Which should be 10 years, at this rate.

[A_C_Slater]

I have never seen the 5/10 not being run there. In fact, I was there just earlier today and I left when they told me there was 19 players ahead of me on the waitlist for that very game. They said the 5/10 had the longest waitlist of all the games.

Do you really think the rake is unbeatable in the 5-10 game?

[JJNJustin]

No- the 5-10 games used to be the main action in the Greektown room. However, the 50-100nl has taken away alot of the tourist action and the big no limit game has dried up a lot of small bankrolls. The game is beatable, but not when it is constantly shorthanded and there is a shortage of tourist money constantly flowing in in the form of new players.

For example, the 5-10 at motor city could be said to be unbeatable, since they steakily try to keep short handed games running at night to increase their drag.

I'm all for steady 5-10 games. What I <whoops> tried to say in my orginal post is that the NL games, whether too small or too big, are bad for the limit games. The small games draws all the suckers, and the big game wipes out many break even players.

I'm glad to see that there is a slight increase in demand for the 5-10 lately. For a while I would show up around 12 midnight and have to sit on a short handed game for a long time before it finally broke.

$3-$6 is also no good for the $5-$10 games- like the $50-$100nl, it draws many suckers who might play $5-$10. In general, poker rooms shouldnt run limit games where the betting limits are too close. Now granted if they spread $2-$4, I sure wouldnt sit in this game, but it might help to keep the ultra low limit players and the low limit players more seperated and help keep both games going simultaneously.

-J

[JJNJustin]

Yes, in response to a point you made, they would be better off spreading $3-$6 and $6-$12 rather than $2-$4 and $5-$10 with the current rake schedule. You are 100% correct.

Many people bitch about the lack of comps. I dont really care about that. I'd rather see better game variety, or proper game structure, or rake reduction than getting comped. I mean, they do give you $6.00 for the snack bar, which I mentioned isnt the greatest, but it's not like you have to play for 10 hours to get this credit. Just be seated at any game and bug a floor person and they'll almost always give you a comp.

The games about a year and a half ago used to be really good- you could find at least 4 5-10 games going most of the time, 2 at the wee hours. But the NL has taken over the room, I hate this, and I'm finding less and less poker opportunities I can beat. I wont bother playing $50-$100, because this is clearly a house game. I wont sit in the other no-limit game, because I know I am clearly outgunned. I wont play $3-$6 cause this, too, is a house game. I guess my best bet it so show up in the early afternoon and try to get in a $5-$10 game until it breaks or starts to go short but 2 am.

I just would like to see a "limit" put on the availability of that big no-limit game. I think it should be relegated to once a week like the pot limit omaha game. They'll never do that- So I'll just have to drive out to Chicago and Mt. Pleasant more often and be selective about what I play at Greektown and Motor City. And I guess this was sort of the point of my original post- 32-40 tables and nothing for me to play. Sort of like 100 channels and nothing on.

-J

[JJNJustin]

Like the $2-$10 stud game- One of the guys replied what a crappy game it is. The thing that makes it bad is there is not enough blind money to stimulate action. You only have to put $2 every 8 hands, compare this to $5-$10 holdem, where you have to put $7 every 10(or less) hands. This makes all the difference in the game. Tight players are rewarded for extra tight play. Try playing a hold'em game without the big blind and see what happens. The other thing is that, like the gentleman said in reply to my post, you never know what the betting is going to be, $2, $7, $10, $20,$40 on any given round. So now it maybe correct to call $2 with something very weak, but if it goes around and get raised you frequently have to throw your hand away. Good players make this adjustment, suckers dont and get wiped out more easily. Imagine trying to fill a straight or flush and paying the maximum every round to try and do so, with little in the way of reward in the form of blind money. Also, the betting limits dont double in the later rounds. The betting, theortically, could be heaviest on the early streets and lighter on the last few streets. This equates to even lesser implied odds. So basically you have to have the best hand on 3rd street- rolled up or highest pair. If you want to chase, you'd better be sure it doesnt get raised- and you know it will be. Also, if you have a big pair or rolled up and try to protect it by raising early on, you usually get no action- because there is no dead money in the pot. Why should I call your raise if I havent committed anything in the way of ante and nobody else is going to play. I'll just pass and wait for a better opportunity. It's a stupid game. It makes a rock tight game out of what should be a relatively lucrative, loose, and juicy game. I have tried to explain this over and over to Greektown floor personnel. They dont care. What is important to them is that the dealers dont spend extra time collecting an ante- this would slow their rate/hr expectation. But, as you see, the game is totally died off. When I visited AC, I was suprised to see 7-stud totally thriving. However, there is a big difference. They dont play spread limit. They play fixed tiered limit like $6-$12 or $10-$20. The big Greektown game was $5-$20 with no ante. Theoretically, as stud games get higher, the ante is supposed to be proportionally bigger, not non-existant. I'm not saying you cant win $ playing spread limit, I'm saying eventually the tourists quit playing it, and the profits are very meager. I'm saying the fixed tiered games are much better. If you play at Foxwoods or Taj Mahal, you will see these games thrive. The reason is the structure. I believe if you changed the structure to the $2-$10 or $5-$20 structure with no ante, these games would suffer, too.

What I am saying is that Detroit casinos should at least TRY this structure and see what happens. We are not that far from the East Coast and I suspect we could get a lot more action if a GOOD stud game was spread. But the management, unfamiliar with how game structure can really affect the long term success of a game and too intent on maximizing rake by spreading hold'em games, just doesn't care. Too me, this is inherently bad for business. A poker room should have this duality (i.e. stud and holdem) to better absorb the "weight". I know this sounds ridiculous, but it isn't. This is one of the reasons that AC poker rooms do very well. Detroit could learn from them. Ironically, the guy who runs Greektown is from NJ, and a few of the guys who run Motor City are also from the East Coast.

I feel like Detroit poker room management doesnt pay attention to what is important, and spends too much time to what isnt important. For example, trying to spread a $75-$150 high roller 7-stud when the daily middle limit stud game doesnt exist is an example of this. Not lowering the rake on a short handed low limit game while not spreading other games due to the decrease in expected rake is another example. Catering to the high limit players who account for a small % of the entire rake while ignoring the needs of the low limit and middle limit players who make up the majority is another such example. Hiring additional personnel to take care of the sign ins while not offering a visible board for players to see where and if they have been listed correctly is another example. Having a non-smoking side and a smoking side, yet not offering similiar games on each side is another example. If I'm a high limit player, I'd better not like to smoke, otherwise I will be leaving the table alot. In contrast, if I play mostly low limit, I'd better bring a face mask, because even the non-smoking $5-$10 table is on the SMOKING side of the room.
How silly is that?

-J

[Bobby Digital]

[ QUOTE ]
$3-$6 game which due to the rake is a break even game.


[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, I disagree. The play is extremely bad at 3-6.

[JJNJustin]

I would say, in comparison, Greektown vs. Motor City is alot like Taj Mahal vs. The Borgata, respectively. However, the AC casinos are run a lot better. In fact, there is no comparison.

-J