The Bully and The Beast

[zman]

I have come to appreciate the importance of game selection as a determining factor of winning or losing. But being the novice i am, i still have trouble assesing wether the game is good or bad (for me). I mostly play online since there arent any live games in my area, and when there are several tables to choose from, its really difficult picking the best. I would appreciate some tips on how you guys go about it, in general, and specifically if anyone has any tips on PokerStars where i have started playing recently. There are often several tables at the limits i play, which is usually $25 PLHE and sometimes $50 PLHE, if i evaluate the game to be in my favor. My evaluations arent always that good, so thats why im asking. (ie. time of day, day of week etc. for a newbie to have any chance.) I mean PokerStars attract all kinds of player, theres the usual bunch of regular rounders, which im learning to recognize and try to stay clear of, and the total suckers, which im trying to spot, so any tips are wellcome.

I also recently tried the $25 and $50 NLHE, and i enjoy it a lot, but id like to know how you handle big pocket pairs (AA or KK), one way would be to go all in preflop to eliminate 99 and such, another to make smaller raises to suck in TT and better. As i see it there are perils any which way.

Refering to the subject title, heres a story of a game i was in last nite, that made my day. PokerStars $25 NLHE, id fared OK at the other tables previously and just sat down, only to see that the table was full of "rounders", especially this one guy i didnt want to play, not that he was better than the rest, but id played him at some of the other tables earlier and this guy was a bully if i ever saw one. Not so much in the hands, but in-between hands. FE, it happened twice that he flopped a small set against my Big Pair, and thats the chit that happens in this game, but i dont appreciate when the guy LAUGHS OUT and mocks me after the pot. Now, im an advocate of keeping the same face, whether i win or lose, my feelings on the other hand are obviously not the same, but i like to keep them to myself, and i like when the other players do the same. There wasnt any foolish play of me, i just played my AA fast. But this guy was mocking me, so i didnt want to play with him no more.
Well, i took the BB as i sat down and planned to leave as fast as i came.
In the BB im dealt K5o, and im just waiting to fold it so i can leave. There are 3 folds, 4 calls of which one is my favorite bully, and SB fold to me. So the flop comes KKQ. Whoa, thats pretty, but what about the QQ, any of those guys could of limped with QQ, KQs theyd probably raise, AK as well. I figure i got the best hand so far anyway (which i, by the way always do with theese guys, and its cost me some. So, i thinks how to make some money out of this hand. Dang, i dont have a better position. Wisest thing to check i figure. Checked around. Comes turn card, and guess what, yup, theres the beast: K #4. Im almost falling backwards, not that i havent had quads before, but this was soooo purty. Geez, i think, the board is wrecked, ill never make any money out of this! Just check and see what happens, river T. OK, i figure time for action, so i make a dollar bet. Call, fold, fold, bully RAISE!!! Of course he called my all-in reraise, and wisely i had made a full buy-in. He was holding QT, and he was calling me NAMES afterwards. UUH, horrid man! Unfortunately, i couldnt stop myself from using his own laughter back, in CAPITALS. (I regret that one)

So, whats the lesson to be drawn from this? Dont let the blinds see the flop for free?

Thank you for your time, pokerlovers

[Louie Landale]

There's a lot going on in this post:

[] Complain to management about the verbal abuse. Or just turn it off (you can do that, no?). Anyway, don't initiate any dialog with him, but I suppose you could respond to his BS. A useful sort of response is one that doesn't make any sense: he'll invest time trying to figure it out which should disolve his energy for abuse "The hen smells its own screen door first", or "Yeah, and if dogs had lips they'd still be called 'Dogs'", or "You sound like Jay Leno", or "That reminds me of a Joke I heard", but then don't tell him. Or a counter insult "Normally that would be an insult, but from you its a compliment. Thanks".

[] Good games, generally, are those with lots of people but not huge pots. This suggests lots of calling indicating loose-passive types. Beginners should probably avoid the aggressive games since they present a LOT of unusual situations you are probably not used to.

[] If they are likely to call a big pre-flop raise DO NOT SLOWPLAY big pairs. Don't slow play big pairs in NL unless you can realistically get away from them later. So if the opponents are reasonably assertive but don't bluff, slow-playing doesn't cost that much. If you figure you won't know what to do if faced with a big bet (or even if they call a big bet), then move all-in now.

[] "[censored]" is spelled with an "s". "Purty" is spelled with a "d".

[] If you take the blinds you might as well play the orbit. Those are free hands and leaving costs you money.

- Louie

[bernie]

if game selection is key, and i think it is, i wouldnt recommend a novice play a cash pot limit or no limit game. unless you really want to pay alot to learn

b

[zman]

Although i am fairly new at hold'em, ive played poker, mostly local variants from the distant lands i come from. Then we mostly play PL, and i find myself more comfortable with PL. I have never won at fixed limit except a few sessions. I found it very difficult and i think most people that play fixed are very good. The problem i am having is evaluating and assessing the everchanging situation at hand and interpreting it into estimated value. If im not mistaken i think it was Gary Carson who wrote "In PL, don't try to win money, try to win pots." I didn't understand that until i played some fixed limit. I find it easier to win pots than money (=bets). I suspect i haven't grasped the math yet, and honestly i haven't tried either. In PL i dont play the math (cards+bets), i play the man and his stack.

Thank you for your time, pokerlovers

[bernie]

the reason i said that was because when learning the game, id prefer to do it cheap. and the less math, even the basic stuff for holdem, you know the greater disadvantage youre at. especially in a pot/no limit holdem game. and especially if your against someone who knows the game.

proof, you say? there is a reason it is very hard, almost impossible, to find a casinos (in the US) that spreads pot limit or no limit live games. very very few do it. the newibies and live ones get killed.

sure, playing the man and his stack sound good, but constantly rebuying sucks. why make learning more expensive than it has to be. unless you dont mind paying that much. and eventually, you will.

you may have a natural 'feel' for the feel games of pot/no limit. but id strongly suggest learning the basics in a limit setting. limit also limits your losses a little more. and much of the foundation stuff crosses over.

when i 1st was learning to golf, i could only hit long irons. (if you dont know, long irons are tough to hit) til i worked on my game. then i couldnt hit the damn things at all. but once i made other aspects of my game stronger, my long irons came back and i hit them better than before.

just some ideas

cya

b

[zman]

I appreciate your suggestions, could you expand on what specifically to focus on while trying to master the fixed limit game. I have played LL, but found myself outplayed all the time, and this is where i kept rebuying, so i gave it up and moved back to PL. I very much get your point and would like to work more on the foundation. So where do i lay the first brick.

Thank you for your time, pokerlovers.

[bernie]

mind you, i dont know how much you know at this point. sooo

first brick is preflop hands. and tailoring your preflop standards to the texture of game your playing against. learn why some types of preflop hands are better in certain situations than others.

then post flop look at drawing odds so youll know when to stay in and when to get out.

learn to play tight first. one difference between limit and other forms is that limit is 'generally' a much tighter played game.

also, buy a beginner book. lots of em out there. jones, krieger, some guy named sklansky. all will give ya an idea for basic stuff. get most of those concepts down, then get the other books.

btw...most on here own multiple beginner books and not just one. or we've at least read em at some point.

even the idiot john patrick had a point in one book. if your going to be serious about your game, learn all you can about it. and no, that line isnt worth the cover price of his book, but it is true. (dont buy his book unless there's a world shortage of toilet paper)

others on the forum will have ideas as to where to start. being active on the forum will also accelerate the process. compare how youd play a hand against other posters responses and check your reasoning against theirs.

it's not often you get to openly discuss hands live the way you do here with the quality of posters on here.

have a good one.

b

[Cyrus]

"Don't buy [John Patrick's] book unless there's a world shortage of toilet paper."

Not even then. That would turn you into a dumb ass.