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#1
09-14-2005, 10:10 AM
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What do you think about my flop and turn play?
Party Poker 1/2. Table is loose passive both villians in this hand are loose passive. I am running very good the player on my left hates me.
Pre flop: UTG calls, folds to me in MP2 i raise with K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] folds to SB who calls BB folds UTG calls. Flop (7sb 3players) A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] SB checks UTG bets I raise SB calls UTG calls. I raised the flop because I wasn't folding with 5.5 pretty clean outs and I didn't want to call and I felt like a flop raise could get me to the river here. What do you think? Also does the potential of chopping if I do catch a ten make this a flop fold? Turn (6.5bb 3players) J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] SB checks BB checks I check. I felt this was a clear check with outs play even though I paired my jack. I raised on the flop with the intention of taking a free card on the turn so I took it. I also felt if I was behind there was a strong chance I would get check/raised and I didn't want that. Everyone agree with the turn check? 
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#2
09-14-2005, 10:15 AM
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Re: What do you think about my flop and turn play?
I raised the flop because I wasn't folding with 5.5 pretty clean outs and I didn't want to call and I felt like a flop raise could get me to the river here.
you're giving yourself 1.5 outs for a backdoor flush draw and 4 for the straight when the board is already paired? this is a horrible raise and a horrible reason for a raise. what's worse is your: "i didn't want to call" ... why not? if you suspect your opponent would bet this with a queen (giving you K outs), plus the backdoor, plus the straight draw... yeah, i can see drawing on the turn... but you do NOT have the equity to raise... you, in fact, have nothing. given the way you played it i'd check the turn and plan to fold the river unimproved, unless you think your opponents are capable of folding a queen. given your reads (a player who hates you), i would expect to have to showdown here.
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#3
09-14-2005, 10:24 AM
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Re: What do you think about my flop and turn play?
your turn check is very good as there is a very small chance you have the best hand and there is a very good chance SB will c/r. IMO this is a semi-checking with outs hand and I would plan to fold the river UI if SB leads out and contemplate calling if UTG bets.
As for the flop raise I think this is fine as UTG will c/r an A on the flop so your assessment of your outs is probably correct against him.
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#4
09-14-2005, 10:25 AM
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Re: What do you think about my flop and turn play?
Flop play close decision between raising and folding. Against weak opponents who give too many free cards and rarely 3-bet flop, raising is fine.
On the turn you must take free card. Against two other players fold equity is just not high enough. You have clean outs and risk of raise is high.
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#5
09-14-2005, 10:35 AM
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Re: What do you think about my flop and turn play?
[ QUOTE ]
I raised the flop because I wasn't folding with 5.5 pretty clean outs and I didn't want to call and I felt like a flop raise could get me to the river here. you're giving yourself 1.5 outs for a backdoor flush draw and 4 for the straight when the board is already paired? this is a horrible raise and a horrible reason for a raise. what's worse is your: "i didn't want to call" ... why not? if you suspect your opponent would bet this with a queen (giving you K outs), plus the backdoor, plus the straight draw... yeah, i can see drawing on the turn... but you do NOT have the equity to raise... you, in fact, have nothing. given the way you played it i'd check the turn and plan to fold the river unimproved, unless you think your opponents are capable of folding a queen. given your reads (a player who hates you), i would expect to have to showdown here. [/ QUOTE ] I am well aware of the fact that I don't have the equity to raise here. It was a free card play that I felt had a strong chance to work and the best chance for me to see a river card. I don't like calling a flop bet and folding to a turn bet unimproved if the extra small bet would get me to the river.
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#6
09-14-2005, 10:40 AM
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Re: What do you think about my flop and turn play?
The player that hates you is not in the hand, yes?
If so, then you have to take the bet at face value - i.e. you're facing at least Qx. You barely have odds to call this bet even with 5.5 outs. Now, let's take a look at the free card play. You'll most likely have about .5bb pot equity on the turn, so your free card play needs to work almost 100% to be useful. If you ever get 3-bet or donk-bet then this play really sucks. Additionally, if UTG doesn't have an A, he's going to check the turn a fair amount of the time, giving you a free card anyway. I think simply calling the flop and folding the turn UI is the best play here.
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#7
09-14-2005, 10:47 AM
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Re: What do you think about my flop and turn play?
[ QUOTE ]
The player that hates you is not in the hand, yes? If so, then you have to take the bet at face value - i.e. you're facing at least Qx. You barely have odds to call this bet even with 5.5 outs. Now, let's take a look at the free card play. You'll most likely have about .5bb pot equity on the turn, so your free card play needs to work almost 100% to be useful. If you ever get 3-bet or donk-bet then this play really sucks. Additionally, if UTG doesn't have an A, he's going to check the turn a fair amount of the time, giving you a free card anyway. I think simply calling the flop and folding the turn UI is the best play here. [/ QUOTE ] The player that hates me is not in this hand and yes I need to take the bet at face value. Getting three bet or donked would really suck here and make the free card play bad. These are all good points and calling the flop and folding the turn unimproved may be correct. I am undecided and thats why I posted this.
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#8
09-14-2005, 10:56 AM
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Re: What do you think about my flop and turn play?
I would fold the flop here as this pot is not worth fighting for. I hate free card plays with just a gutshot, and the small pot makes it worse, IMO. With 2 Aces on board, there is also a pretty strong chance we get 3-bet.
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#9
09-14-2005, 11:00 AM
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Re: What do you think about my flop and turn play?
[ QUOTE ]
I would fold the flop here as this pot is not worth fighting for. [/ QUOTE ] I don't think you should be folding the flop here. Villian is betting into the PF raiser, so he's most likely got a Q (an A is going to c/r either the flop or the river). With 5.5 decent outs and possibly 3 Ks, you've got odds to see the turn. BTW, if villian does have an A, then he's probably betting out with the idea of 3-betting the flop. Which makes a free card play all the more riskier.
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#10
09-14-2005, 11:12 AM
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Re: What do you think about my flop and turn play?
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you should be folding the flop here. Villian is betting into the PF raiser, so he's most likely got a Q [/ QUOTE ] from my experience, loose-passives generally will check/call all the way with a Q. Again, I could be wrong, but the pot is too small for me to want to find out.
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