I wait until the turn, but now I'm confused

coinflip · #1 08-30-2005, 11:56 AM

SB is very loose preflop and is something of a gambooler. His raising standards seem reasonable so far (probably about top 7-8% of hands). He rarely folds postflop and has sucked out on a few people at the table now who are starting to berate his play.

BB is relatively new to the table. He's trying to be tight but not doing so well, playing about a third of his hands so far.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, Hero calls, 2 folds, SB raises, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets, BB raises, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds, Hero ...?

On the flop, with a huge field and many cards I would not like to see, raising here simply traps the field. I decide to call and raise a turn blank for value, since protection is out of the question.

I'm not happy to see BB wake up here and raise, but I've still got the overpair. I'm wavering between 3-betting (my original plan) and folding. What's my line here?

@bsolute_luck · #2 08-30-2005, 12:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I decide to call and raise a turn blank for value

[/ QUOTE ]

doesn't look like a turn "blank" to me. we may have the best hand, but i don't think it is possible to tell. plus UTG is calling a lot so i put him at [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] suited OC- so you still have a lot of cards to dodge, SB might reraise behind you and you're stuck in a raising war.

Matador225 · #3 08-30-2005, 12:07 PM

Raise the flop. Your hand is extremely vulnerable and needs to be protected.

MrWookie47 · #4 08-30-2005, 12:08 PM

How does raising this flop protect his hand?

coinflip · #5 08-30-2005, 12:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
doesn't look like a turn "blank" to me. we may have the best hand, but i don't think it is possible to tell.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that's the weakness of calling the flop -- no one besides the preflop aggressor has shown any strength, so I can't tell if the turn raise is just top pair or someone actually turning trips.

[ QUOTE ]
plus UTG is calling a lot so i put him at [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] suited OC- so you still have a lot of cards to dodge, SB might reraise behind you and you're stuck in a raising war.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you think we should fold?

coinflip · #6 08-30-2005, 12:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop. Your hand is extremely vulnerable and needs to be protected.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone's getting 1:16 at least and likely 1:19 immediate odds if everyone else calls, so they're going to call a flop raise with pretty much anything here.

Bradyams · #7 08-30-2005, 12:19 PM

I usually raise this preflop.

It may be weak, but I think I'm folding the turn. BB may not have a four, but it could get expensive to find out, and even if you are good here there are a lot of river cards you don't want to see.

#8 08-30-2005, 12:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop. Your hand is extremely vulnerable and needs to be protected.

[/ QUOTE ]
how does raising the flop protect your hand. Think about it......

GTSamIAm · #9 08-30-2005, 12:22 PM

I'd usually fold, but if you know BB or the original bettor likes to get funny with a pair on the board, go ahead and 3-bet.

#10 08-30-2005, 12:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
SB is very loose preflop and is something of a gambooler. His raising standards seem reasonable so far (probably about top 7-8% of hands). He rarely folds postflop and has sucked out on a few people at the table now who are starting to berate his play.

BB is relatively new to the table. He's trying to be tight but not doing so well, playing about a third of his hands so far.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, Hero calls, 2 folds, SB raises, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets, BB raises, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds, Hero ...?

On the flop, with a huge field and many cards I would not like to see, raising here simply traps the field. I decide to call and raise a turn blank for value, since protection is out of the question.

I'm not happy to see BB wake up here and raise, but I've still got the overpair. I'm wavering between 3-betting (my original plan) and folding. What's my line here?

[/ QUOTE ]
When the person raises from the SB with the aggressive numbers youve stated, and then proceeds to bet into a huge field on this board, they are extremely likely to have an overpair. After the small blind bets and 3 people call him, your hand is in big trouble. The chance you have the best hand right now is very low and if you do have the best hand the chance it will hold up by the river against a bettor and 3 callers is close to zero. The only reason to call the flop is for set value and the implied odds you could be getting if you hit that perfect card on the turn. You are getting 14-1 but you dont have the 8s so you really only have one good out. You should be folding this flop. Once you get to the turn and your facing a bet and a raise, just fold. You are not in the lead I promise you that.