My river play needs work

PokerBob · #1 09-12-2005, 11:04 AM

i call when i'm beat and fold when i should call and bet when i should check and check when i should bet and i gotta fix it which leads me to the following sticky wicket.

button is 40/10/1.5 and one of my favroite fishies.
SB is a nut and like 45/25/2.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, SB calls, 1 fold, Hero calls.

Flop: (10 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB calls.

River: (9.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB 3-bets, Hero...........

Surfbullet · #2 09-12-2005, 11:10 AM

I want to fold. I could definitely see SB hitting A8 and button raising AK on the river but I think that's the only scenario you are ahead. Are you good 1 in 7? I don't think so.

Surf

rory · #3 09-12-2005, 11:15 AM

me too. i wrote in my poker journal the other day that i suck at the river. king yao's book has the best section on river play written so far-- if you haven't read it, read it. or reread it if you have read it. readily reread it if you read it already. hah. ok. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

i fold this river. the 8 helped both of them somehow, so they either both have an 8 in their hand and made two pair or you are beat. for one more i would call. for two more i fold.

#4 09-12-2005, 11:18 AM

I call against this particular line-up. Against a less overaggressive SB it's a safe fold.

sthief09 · #5 09-12-2005, 11:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]

i fold this river. the 8 helped both of them somehow, so they either both have an 8 in their hand and made two pair or you are beat. for one more i would call. for two more i fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a really interesting point that I've never considered when making a river decision before. however, the SB is really aggressive and bad and could've slowplayed somethign worse, or could just be checkraising one pair. I hate the parlay situations because the second player has such a huge impact, and it's a somewhat rare situation that either player can have you beat, so we aren't used to it. I don't think he can fold but if I broke it down it could be an easy fold

joseki · #6 09-12-2005, 11:23 AM

I'm wondering why you bet out on the flop? I'm inclined to give KK and TT a chance to bet, and AK/AJ a chance to raise. I guess you're worried about free cards for the flush and gutshot draws?

Anyway, I'm folding this river (whatever that's worth, as I misplay this street constantly). Given the action, the only hands you beat are AJ/A8 and maybe QJ. There are many more possible holdings that you don't beat, AA/QQ/JJ/KT/T9/xdxd...

rory · #7 09-12-2005, 11:33 AM

Yeah, the SB is really aggressive. But the AF number doesn't show when they are aggressive-- a lot of times these guys are aggressive but not completely stupid. 3-betting the river as a bluff against two players takes a rare kind of really aggressive player. Usually that high AF number comes from raising a lot in HU pots or on the flop or whatever.

We can't just discount what the SB has because he is aggressive-- I think it is pretty likely the 8 helped him. So for us to be beating him, the 8 had to have made him two pair, which is not out of the realm of possibilities for this player. However, for the 8 to have helped the button and for us to be still winning the button would have had to be 3-betting with a hand like A8 preflop which is pretty unlikely given his 45/10 numbers. I doubt he is only raising 10% of his hands but is 3-betting A8-- it could happen but I doubt it, depends on what heros stats are for the session. I bet the button has backed into the flush with some sort of pair + draw he was calling with and the small blind made either some lame two pair or a straight.

Danenania · #8 09-12-2005, 12:15 PM

I would checkraise the flop, Bob, and fold the river.