3 KJ Hands

dark_horse · #1 09-04-2005, 08:39 PM

Hand 1

Villian is TAG. I think folding the turn was a mistake given my 6:1 odds and hopeful 7 outs, but my K could have been dominated/reverse dominated, or 2 of the 7 outs gone because of the flush draw. Probably a very close fold, or an easy one?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG raises, MP calls, 3 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, MP calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.66 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, MP calls, Hero folds.

Hand 2 (no reads)

Any way to get more out of this? I "hate" hitting big hands when heads up and out of position. I couldn't manufacture a way of betting/3betting given the action.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, CO raises, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.33 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.16 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero raises, CO calls.

River: (7.16 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

Final Pot: 9.16 BB

Hand 3

Probably the most interesting hand of the three. Villian is TAG. I think some might argue here that I'm spewing yet again, but my logic for this is that I did everything I could to show myself that I'm beat. I did it in an expensive way, though. Plus, my aggressive play could have taken down the pot with the worst hand. I was very comfortable with my turn fold.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises, MP 3-bets, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold, Hero calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP raises, SB folds, Hero 3-bets, MP calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP raises, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 11 BB

New001 · #2 09-04-2005, 08:59 PM

Hand 1 looks good. Hand 2 looks fine, though I'll bet/3-bet the turn if I can against the more aggressive players. I could also see myself 3-betting preflop.

I really hate hand 3. You aren't going to fold a better hand, you're paying too much to not see showdown, and you're just going to slow down worse hands.

dark_horse · #3 09-04-2005, 09:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I really hate hand 3. You aren't going to fold a better hand, you're paying too much to not see showdown, and you're just going to slow down worse hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

How would you play it instead? I hate playing 2nd pair against aggressive opponents, especially out of position. It looks like he was waiting for the turn to raise again to get more money out of me.

edit: would a line like bet/call, check/fold be ok?

wheelz · #4 09-04-2005, 09:39 PM

Do you think he'd fire again on the turn with a worse hand? I think check-call the flop, check-fold turn is the way to go. Against some players I like check/calling flop and turn, then folding to a river bet, because the pot odds are so close for you to call and improve vs. an ace and some TAGs will fire again on the turn with a worse hand but not the river, but at 3/6 I don't know if that's going to work.

Betting the flop isn't really any good here. You'll let him fold smaller pairs, and raise/wait till the turn to raise with better hands. Maybe even bluff you off the best hand.

dark_horse · #5 09-04-2005, 09:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think he'd fire again on the turn with a worse hand? I think check-call the flop, check-fold turn is the way to go. Against some players I like check/calling flop and turn, then folding to a river bet, because the pot odds are so close for you to call and improve vs. an ace and some TAGs will fire again on the turn with a worse hand but not the river, but at 3/6 I don't know if that's going to work.

Betting the flop isn't really any good here. You'll let him fold smaller pairs, and raise/wait till the turn to raise with better hands. Maybe even bluff you off the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you think some players are more prone to bluff by raising than if checked to a second time? If check/call, check/fold is the way to go against a good TAG here w/ 2nd pair and this board, then I really have to work on my game.

wheelz · #6 09-04-2005, 09:46 PM

No, the chances of him bluffing a worse hand are pretty slim. It's just a possibility.

After he 3-bets your UTG raise and you check/call him on that flop though, he has to be somewhat worried of your hand too. Betting the flop doesn't really help you at all, and 3-betting his raise is just spewing. Like I said, if you think he is the type who will fire again on the turn with a PP then I like calling the turn but folding the river UI, cause he isn't going to bluff again there.

New001 · #7 09-04-2005, 09:56 PM

I'd check/call the flop, check/call the turn, and the river would depend on how I felt and the person involved. A good TAG will be raising a lot more river donkbets than most players, and probably won't be calling QQ or under. I'd probably check/call the river too. I'm also betting if he checks.

wheelz · #8 09-04-2005, 10:00 PM

What worse hand do you think he'd bet again on the river? A TAG should know enough to check behind a PP on the river, because you can't be calling him with a worse hand, and he isn't 3-betting with KT preflop. I don't think he's going to 3-bet your UTG raise then pull a 3 street bluff either.

I don't think this is an easy fold or anything, but against a TAG, I think you should be able to save a bet.

#9 09-04-2005, 10:08 PM

Hand 1 is fine to me. Hand 2 is great--I like the lines you took, especially given that you have the nut flush (or 2nd...whatever).

Hand 3...argh. You and I both know this is spewing. I fold that flop to MP's raise, especially considering his PF action. Barring that, I c/f the turn--no way do I open with a bet here.

I understand your logic (about convincing yourself, I've done the same), but three bets for info really bothers me. You paid way too much to confirm the fact that villain had TP or a set--his PF line and flop raise alone would do the trick for me.

-AC

#10 09-04-2005, 10:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
edit: would a line like bet/call, check/fold be ok?

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain's a TAG, so you might as well change that "check/fold" to fold/fold. If he bet into me while I had 2nd pair, I'd consider myself beat.

-AC