My folded to river bet- way too high! Fold these hands on the river??

odawg09090 · #1 09-04-2005, 02:48 PM

After think I had figured out 5/10 Party (winning at 1.8 BB/100 for 50000), over the past 12000 hands, I've been slightly above break-even which is not good enough for me. One of the stats that I've been looking at is my folded to a river bet which is 50% which is definitely too high. I must be folding too many winners. This might occur because of my over agressive value betting ("Bet/fold") mentality. So I'm planning on reviewing my sessions and posting some of my hands on here until I climb out of this hole. Call these down?

I appreciate any future input from my fellow 2+2ers.

VILLIAN from hands 1, 2 and 3 are the same. After looking at this session, I felt that I got outplayed badly.

Hand 1:

PartyPoker - $5/$10 Texas - 6 players (Converter: PGC)

BB is 71/17/1.1 (70)

Hero is UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

PreFlop
UTG folds, Hero RAISES, CO folds, Button folds
SB folds, BB Calls

(2 players) FLOP: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ( Pot Size: 2.2 BB )
BB checks, Hero BETS
BB Calls

(2 players) TURN: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ( Pot Size: 3.2 BB )
BB checks, Hero BETS
BB RAISES, Hero folds

Final Pot:6.2 BB

Comments: Maybe check the turn, call a river? Villian's stats indicate that he's fairly passive so I folded.

Hand 2:

PartyPoker - $5/$10 Texas - 6 players (Converter: PGC)

Villian is 71/17/1.1 (70)

Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

PreFlop
UTG folds, UTG+1 Calls, CO Calls, Hero RAISES
SB Calls, BB folds, UTG+1 Calls, CO Calls

(4 players) FLOP: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ( Pot Size: 4.5 BB )
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, CO checks, Hero BETS
SB Calls, UTG+1 Calls, CO Calls

(4 players) TURN: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ( Pot Size: 6.5 BB )
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, CO checks, Hero checks

(4 players) RIVER: 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ( Pot Size: 6.5 BB )
SB checks, UTG+1 BETS, CO folds, Hero folds
SB folds

Final Pot:7.5 BB

Comment: Is this a case where I should Raise the river to knock out the possible overcaller? Or is the right move to just call with the overcaller to act last?

Hand 3:

PartyPoker - $5/$10 Texas - 6 players (Converter: PGC)

SB is 71/19/0.5 (21)
UTG+1 is 66/20/1.2 (35)

Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

PreFlop
UTG folds, UTG+1 Calls, CO folds, Hero RAISES
SB Calls, BB folds, UTG+1 Calls

(3 players) FLOP: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ( Pot Size: 3.5 BB )
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks

(3 players) TURN: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ( Pot Size: 3.5 BB )
SB BETS, UTG+1 Calls, Hero Calls

(3 players) RIVER: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ( Pot Size: 6.5 BB )
SB checks, UTG+1 BETS, Hero folds
SB folds

Final Pot:7.5 BB

Comments: I was watching villian play and noticed that he started betting the river a lot more on donks (as a complete bluff). He probably stole at least a pot or two from me. I guess this is the result of folding too much to that river bet. Again, this hand is a call right? Again, the overcaller made me fold. Is it even close?

Hand 4:

PartyPoker - $5/$10 Texas - 5 players (Converter: PGC)

SB is 41/18/3.0 (17)

Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

PreFlop
UTG folds, CO folds, Button folds
SB RAISES, Hero RAISES
SB RAISES, Hero Calls

(2 players) FLOP: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ( Pot Size: 4 BB )
SB BETS, Hero RAISES
SB Calls

(2 players) TURN: 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ( Pot Size: 6 BB )
SB BETS, Hero Calls

(2 players) RIVER: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ( Pot Size: 8 BB )
SB BETS, Hero Calls

Final Pot:10 BB

Comments: Maybe the flop raise was bad. I wanted to see where I stood. I hate playing Missed AKs. The main question I have is about that river call.

Hand 5

PartyPoker - $5/$10 Texas - 5 players (Converter: PGC)

BB is 50/14/1.7 (28)
UTG is 66/2/1.1 (64)

Hero is CO with 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

PreFlop
UTG Calls, Hero Calls, Button folds
SB folds, BB RAISES, UTG Calls, Hero Calls

(3 players) FLOP: J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ( Pot Size: 3.2 BB )
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero BETS
BB Calls, UTG folds

(2 players) TURN: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ( Pot Size: 4.2 BB )
BB checks, Hero BETS
BB Calls

(2 players) RIVER: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ( Pot Size: 6.2 BB )
BB checks, Hero BETS
BB RAISES, Hero folds

Final Pot:9.2 BB

Comments: This one I hated after it happened because villian showed his hand. Also, I'm not sure about that riverbet, but I put him on a 4 with the flop and turn calls. I have no idea what he can have after that river to checkraise (besides maybe 10,8 or 7,7). I figured that he'd lead out if he had a hand... This board doesn't seem like a very good one for a checkraise.

Thank you for reading. May you hit all your draws and suckouts and your opponents hit none.

odawg09090 · #2 09-04-2005, 03:46 PM

Sorry, Bumping before I fall

odawg09090 · #3 09-04-2005, 04:42 PM

One more bump please, as I really need help on these hands.
Or advice on how to get more replies to my posts would be appreciated.

Lurker4 · #4 09-04-2005, 05:32 PM

Hand 1: I usually start opening A5s in the CO, but some open it earlier so thats fine. Your opponent isn't passive, he's actually quite aggro (1.1 AF w/71 VPIP is very high), but w/only a 70 hand stat read, I fold this to the turn c/r, unless you have a better read than just stats (ie, has a tendency to c/r scary turns w/air). Checking turn and calling any river is another line, but usually I can comfortably fold to a turn c/r so I bet the turn. Your hand is very vulnerable and you need to protect against what is likely at least a 6-out +split outs draw, and possibly a 10-out draw.

Hand 2: I just limp behind PF, A9s I always raise here and sometimes A8s, but like the previous hand, PF isnt a big deal. I check this flop behind, 4-way, w/this kind of flop you will be getting callers, and you could easily get c/r'ed on this flop. Turn is good, and river is good. Its hard to believe that UTG+1 would bet a worse hand in a 4-way pot here. The pot isn't even that big, so fold is good. Raising here b/c you don't want callers is only good if you have a LAG read on UTG+1.

Hand 3: I bet the flop here, its 3-way, and no one necessarily has a pair, although the flop is semi-coordinated. On the river, I think its close but I call. I can see UTG+1 possibly betting an A here as you haven't shown any strength postflop and SB likely has less than top pair. There is no overcaller here on the river so I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Hand 4: I calldown once you see the flop. I don't think raising serves much purpose, he'll just 3-bet flop or c/r turn w/a pair, and AQ/AJ/KQ are only drawing to 3 outs against you anyway. I calldown turn/river once if I were to raise the flop like you did. "Seeing where you stand" and "raising for information" are relatively useless here since you won't be folding to a flop 3-bet and will be getting odds on the turn to draw to your overs anyway.

Hand 5: I might raise PF depending on the blinds, but overlimp is ok. postflop is fine, fold to the river c/r. If this villain will c/r bluff the river sometimes then check through river.

In general I don't think these hands represent hands where you should be decreasing your fold to river bet %, except for two of them which are close anyway. I think where your FRB might be too high is in some HU situations where it is correct to calldown w/A high or an underpair to the board or something. My FRB is around 40-41, so 50 is definitely too high.

As for getting more replies, I also sometimes get 0-2 replies to my posts, but making it only one hand in a post, or at least less than 5, might help. Also, use another handconverter, IMO w/ this converter the action is a bit tougher to follow quickly.

Smarty · #5 09-04-2005, 07:58 PM

Again, here are my 2 cents..

1. Fold this preflop. Given that you raised, I think the flop bet is fine but I prefer a turn check here. This was a pretty bad turn card for you.

2. again I fold this pre given the previous action, and would definitely not raise. As for post flop, again I'd check the flop. Turn and river are fine.

3. Again I don't really like A9o after a EP limp, but given this action I think you call the river and win the hand a decent chunk of the time. I think this was the worst fold of all.

4. I cap this preflop. I might fold this river because he's playing it like he has a PP and I think his AK may check the river.

5. I check this river through, but again I don't like your preflop action. Low-mid PPs in EP are raise or fold IMO.

4.