Waiting for the turn to raise?

#1 09-15-2005, 03:53 PM

Good or Bad?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
5 folds, MP3 raises, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls, MP3 caps, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (16 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls

#2 09-15-2005, 04:37 PM

It's been a while since I read the Two Overpairs section of SSHE, so please forgive me if this is way off, but I think you should raise on the flop. If SB had led out and both players had called, I would say wait until the turn, because it would be unlikely you could protect your hand by raising. Here, though, you can face both SB and BB with two cold, so I think raising is best. Also note the two spades and the connectedness of the cards, which I think argue against waiting until the turn.

MrWookie47 · #3 09-15-2005, 04:46 PM

A coordinated flop argues in favor of waiting, because there are more cards to come that will wreck you, reducing your edge on the flop. This flop action would suggest a raise, since you have an opportunity to protect against gutshots in a large pot. However, given MP's preflop cap, I'm just calling down unless an A or K falls or if it's ever 2 bets to me, at which point a fold is prudent. You're not all that likely to be ahead here, but the pot is very big.

Bankuri · #4 09-15-2005, 04:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
...This flop action would suggest a raise, since you have an opportunity to protect against gutshots in a large pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you cannot protect by a raise on the flop. The callers are getting 9:1 to call and I would think implied odds would make it possible for a gutshot to call. If you want to protect against them you have to wait for the turn.

BigBiceps · #5 09-15-2005, 04:58 PM

call for your one out.

If there is any action on the turn after a 4 straight, 3 flush, or ace or king appears fold then.

if an innocuous card like the deuce of diamonds hits then check call until the river, if there is no raising going on. Although, you might already be behind.

Nightbrace · #6 09-15-2005, 05:12 PM

raise now, you want to scare people away especially with straight possibilities on the board.

Shillx · #7 09-15-2005, 06:04 PM

There have been many threads about this exact topic and there seems to be a lot of discord among debaters though the underlying concept should be easy enough to figure out.

When the villian bets the flop, you are probably a small to moderate underdog against his range of hands. When the villian bets the flop and turn, you are a very big underdog against his range of hands since many of his AK/AQ type hands will check the turn (but he will bet a worse hand often enough to warrent calling). You have to get that raise in on the flop while your hand still has a chance of being best. If you wait until the turn, you are almost always raising when he has AA-JJ and are cooked.

Raise it up now.

Brad

Edit - If you decide to call the flop, you should call the turn as well. The idea behind raising is that you should do it when there is some chance that your hand is good. If you wait until the turn to raise, your hand is rarely good so you should just call with the pot odds that you are getting. Who cares if someone folds KQ when the bettor has JJ? You want to keep those hands around to pad the pot.

#8 09-15-2005, 06:15 PM

Nice post, that is very helpful. What if their were like two more people in the hand to the right of the PF-capper? Thus making the pot bigger and your hand more vulnerable if it is good. Take the chance and raise the turn then?

Shillx · #9 09-15-2005, 06:23 PM

The only time you should wait until the turn in these spots is when you have a really good hand.

Say two people limp, MP3 raises, we 3-bet in the CO with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], blinds come along and all call. MP3 caps it and we look at a flop 6 ways for 24 SB.

Flop: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Check to MP3 who bets. We should just call here and plan on raising any turn. This gives our hand the best chance of winning against the field.

If you change your hand to T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] you shouldn't call the flop and raise the turn since you will again almost never be good when he bets on 4th. So the question is...do we raise (note that it will be for value) the flop in a 25 SB pot? I dunno. Since the worst we can offer someone is 13.5:1 it is very hard to get anything to fold here. It is probably close between calling and raising but I might raise and pray that someone folds out. Again a raise figures to have some value in this spot as well.

Brad

#10 09-15-2005, 06:31 PM

Thanks again, very helpful. One more hypothetical for you if you'll humor me. What if you have a hand like A10s and 4 limpers, raiser, you coldcall, blinds come along. Ten high flop. Checked to the raiser who bets into you? Would we maybe wait here for the turn as we don't have as much reason to suspect that our hand is behind? Or raise now b/c if villian does have AK he is unlikely to lead the turn again?