KK in monsorous pot...

Akimka · #1 08-30-2005, 08:52 AM

No reads on opponents. Unfortunately...

Fold it on turn? I thought I can chase my 2 outs...
River fold - reasonable or not appropriate?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, MP3 raises, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, SB calls, BB caps, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

Flop: (18 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, MP3 calls, Hero raises, SB calls, BB 3-bets, MP3 caps, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (17 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, BB calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

River: (21 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, BB calls, MP3 folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 23 BB

Nick Royale · #2 08-30-2005, 09:00 AM

I would have called the river...

peterchi · #3 08-30-2005, 09:09 AM

To call the turn, it can't be solely on the basis of hoping to catch one of two outs. You need to have at least some small belief that your hand actually might be good.

Thus, once you call the turn, you can't fold the river for one bet.

If you really need to fold this, I'd do it on the turn. But I wouldn't do it without a strong enough read to be almost completely certain that I'm beat.

jskills · #4 08-30-2005, 09:22 AM

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I would have called the river...

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Akimka · #5 08-30-2005, 09:23 AM

I feel sick for now [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
But that SB comes alive on turn - that's very strange - I put him on possible straight/set and on river I thought I can't win on overcall - I must beat not only possible str8/set but other player who was agressive all the time with AA possibly...

But I feel sick about my desicion - I can lose alot with this fold...

Nick Royale · #6 08-30-2005, 09:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Thus, once you call the turn, you can't fold the river for one bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
There are cases when you should call the turn when you don't have the odds to draw, even if you're planning to fold the river UI to a bet. With this pot, this is not one of them.

Nick Royale · #7 08-30-2005, 09:36 AM

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But that SB comes alive on turn - that's very strange

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You should put more emphasis at the bolded part. It's a reason to call. Why isn't he check/raising with a straight? Something doesn't add up.

peterchi · #8 08-30-2005, 09:40 AM

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There are cases when you should call the turn when you don't have the odds to draw, even if you're planning to fold the river UI to a bet.

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Thanks, I think I agree with this, however, I can't think of an example. Can you give me one?

#9 08-30-2005, 09:50 AM

I agree with others, if you call the turn you must call the river. While the flop action is frightening, there's no raising going on on fourth street or the river. That leads me to want to call down. The only way I can see folding the river here after calling 4th is if the sb bets and then it's raised/reraised before it gets to you. Your hand will be good often enough (BB has QQ, for instance, MP3 has a diamond draw and SB has AJ) that you need to call this down.

Nick Royale · #10 08-30-2005, 10:09 AM

I'm going to try to find a great post on the subject, I think by Kurosh. I think it was a daily hand post, I'll post a link if I find. But in general it's the chance you hit your draw combined with the chance villain checks the turn (for example giving up on a bluff) for you to take a free sd that makes this type of play possible. When he bets you might not have the odds to call, but since there's chance of egtting a free sd calling the turn might be profitable. In other words, you don't think he'll bet the river with a worse hand, but think he might have betted (or raised) turn with a worse hand.

In the original post OP's hand is too strong and the pot is too big, so you have to call.