Using the Free Card More Frequently

[QTip]

I've been looking over my play and doing some reading and thinking (nothing new)...but anyway, I've really realized that I've not been punishing passive play enough. Specifically, I'm referring to using the free card play. I've been usingn this play almost exclusively to strong draws like four flushes and OESDs. I haven't been attempting this against passive players with gutshots. So...just a reminder to other players...

Also, I was thinking about this fact with hand with probably just 4 outs. Then I was thinking about a hand like middle of bottom pair, where we probably have 5 outs. However, things seem a bit different because we actually already have somewhat of a hand, but our passive opponent probably already a better hand since he's betting into us. However, this seems to get much more complicated because if we check the turn, we're asking to fold the possible best hand on the river. Any thoughts or examples where we have some sort of made hand but would want to raise for a free turn. I was just thinking about this because we have more outs with the split pair than the gutshot.

[toss]

HU against loose passies I'll usually value bet A-high on the turn on favorable looking boards. Against someone who will call down with any pair I'll free card again and again.

[Harv72b]

When I have a (weak) made hand and a passive player bets into me, I can be pretty sure that he's got a better hand than I do. So the free card play isn't really worth it because I'm folding the turn UI nearly every time...by definition, you're only raising the flop for a free card if you intend on seeing the river almost no matter what.

I can definitely think of situations where raising with a gutshot would be worth doing--for example:

Hero is on the button with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
3 limpers to Hero, Hero raises, SB (very LPP) calls, BB calls, limpers call. 6 to the flop for 12 SBs.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
SB bets, BB & limpers call.

You're getting more than enough odds to call with your gutshot & will almost certainly have correct odds to call again on the turn; so raising for the free card is just smart poker. If you're talking about doing this in HU or other, smaller pots, then I doubt if the gutshot comes in often enough on the river to make up for the extra SB you spend raising the flop (vs. calling the flop & folding the turn UI).

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
HU against loose passies I'll usually value bet A-high on the turn on favorable looking boards. Against someone who will call down with any pair I'll free card again and again.

[/ QUOTE ]

I probably didn't express what I'm thinking of clearly...

Let me see if I can think of appropriate examples.

First one:

You have T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on the button.

4 limpers to you, you call, sb calls and bb checks.

Flop: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

A loose passive bets in EP, 1 caller in MP, folded to you...I've not been raising enough here.

Now...let me try the 2nd thought:

You're on the button with T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

4 limpers to you, you call, sb calls and bb checks.

Flop K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

A loose passive bets in EP, 1 caller in MP, folded to you... Now...we are probably beat here, but we have more outs then we did in the first hand. I'm thinking about how the free card play may or may not apply here, and just looking for some thoughts.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
by definition, you're only raising the flop for a free card if you intend on seeing the river almost no matter what.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good response, thanks.

What's interesting about this is that if the pot is medium sized and you raise for the free card, you may bloat the pot to the point that calling a donk bet on the turn is now correct.

Also...please check out my 2nd example I just posted.

[soweak.]

you just want to be careful not to overuse the free card play. You will find you end up getting 3-bet on the flop A LOT.

This has been what has been happening to me (I've whiffed about 200 flops in the last few days). My flop raises now tend to get less respect when I have a hand that does actually need protecting, or when I want middle pairs to fold to me. I would use the free card raise moreso on you your tougher draws (like gutshots) because you will not have the odds to continue on the next street, AND, if you hit your opponents are more likely to pay you off with a hand like top pair or middle pair.

[toss]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
HU against loose passies I'll usually value bet A-high on the turn on favorable looking boards. Against someone who will call down with any pair I'll free card again and again.

[/ QUOTE ]

I probably didn't express what I'm thinking of clearly...

Let me see if I can think of appropriate examples.

First one:

You have T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on the button.

4 limpers to you, you call, sb calls and bb checks.

Flop: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

A loose passive bets in EP, 1 caller in MP, folded to you...I've not been raising enough here.

Now...let me try the 2nd thought:

You're on the button with T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

4 limpers to you, you call, sb calls and bb checks.

Flop K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

A loose passive bets in EP, 1 caller in MP, folded to you... Now...we are probably beat here, but we have more outs then we did in the first hand. I'm thinking about how the free card play may or may not apply here, and just looking for some thoughts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I much like the free card play better in hand 2 than in hand 1. In hand 2 we actually have a pair to showdown with. In the first hand we only save 1SB at best and probably won't make up much on the river against passies.

[Harv72b]

Okay, I think I understand what you're saying a little better now. And I still think it comes down to, will you have the correct pot odds (or close to it) to call again UI on the turn? If you do, then you should obviously be raising the flop if you think it'll buy you a free card. If not, then you're probably better off just calling and folding UI on the turn; again, someone who's better at math than I am can check this, but it seems like raising in that situation would be -EV.

Both of the examples you gave would fall into the latter category, as you're only getting 9:1 on your flop call & are looking at 7:1 (at best) on the turn if you just called. Raising the flop & taking the free card would get you 11:2 odds, which is not good enough with those draws (and ignores the possibility that you're drawing nearly dead vs. a hand like KT or a flopped set in the second example).

[QTip]

Another possible example:

You have 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on the button.

EP raises, 4 cold call to you, you call, sb folds and bb calls.

Flop: K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

BB checks, PFRer bets, 1 caller and folded to you.

Now, you're probably going to have odds to chase to the river here anyway...

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
you just want to be careful not to overuse the free card play. You will find you end up getting 3-bet on the flop A LOT.

This has been what has been happening to me (I've whiffed about 200 flops in the last few days). My flop raises now tend to get less respect when I have a hand that does actually need protecting, or when I want middle pairs to fold to me. I would use the free card raise moreso on you your tougher draws (like gutshots) because you will not have the odds to continue on the next street, AND, if you hit your opponents are more likely to pay you off with a hand like top pair or middle pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, those are things to consider. If I think there's a decent chance I'm getting 3 bet, I'm only attempting the play with hands that I don't care if I get 3 bet anyway (i.e. the stronger draws).

I will say this, though, sometimes with these weaker, more hidden draws (2 pair and gapped gutshots), I wonder if it's better to not even try for the free card since they won't scare the flop better and you'll be able to make more on the bigger streets with a raise there.