$109s - QQ Hand

Unarmed · #1 08-14-2005, 02:16 PM

Villain is LAG.
Fairly standard?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter

UTG+2 (t1000)
MP1 (t935)
MP2 (t1000)
MP3 (t1090)
CO (t1000)
Button (t990)
SB (t985)
BB (t1000)
Hero (t1000)
UTG+1 (t1000)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero raises to t45, 4 folds, MP3 calls t45, 4 folds.

Flop: (t115) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t90, MP3 calls t90.

Turn: (t295) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets t125, Hero shoves.

suited_ace · #2 08-14-2005, 02:22 PM

I think I'd bet a little bit more PF. That set aside, I think I like it. A decent non-all-in raise would pot-commit you, so pushing is correct.

bigt439 · #3 08-14-2005, 02:42 PM

I usually like how you play most of your hands, but I don't really like this one. Your raise preflop seems way too small. Maybe I'm missing something here, but my standard raise in L1 from UTG is to ~t75. People will call that raise with so much junk that I can't imagine what kind of junk they're calling a t45 raise with. I think this is a big mistake that makes this hand unnecessarily difficult.

The lead on the flop is obviously totally standard and him calling doesn't tell you too much. That turn card is really quite bad for your hand so I'm not sure why you're interested in getting your whole stack in on it. He could have alot of hands that you're ahead of, which means your check raise is not suicide, but against those hands this is not the way to extract maximum value. There are also so many hands he could have that now beat you. Combo draws, a naked 8, wonky two pair... I mean he could literally have any 2 with your tiny raise preflop (I'm sure you know that without a read this is a plausible type of opponent).

You still have a hand with draw potential and showdown value, but I don't think it's great in this spot. I would check call this turn and re-evaluate on the river. His small bet has made this perfect for you. The problem with betting, is he can push and you probably have to call where you're usually behind. If you make your straight I'd lead for 2/3 of the pot or something, and if you don't improve, you can check call, check fold, or blocking bet, depending on the card.

I think your turn play folds worse hands without extracting much value, and gives better hands a good chance to stack you because you don't have that many outs. There are definitely times when you extract more value from hands like AT or something that donkishly call your check raise than my line would have, I just don't think the risk is worth the reward.

Freudian · #4 08-14-2005, 03:12 PM

Cards that you don't like to see on the river.

A, Q, J, T, 9, 7, any diamond, any spade.

Cards you would like on the river.

A non-diamond, non-spade 8 and K.

It is obvious you have to push this turn. A LAG player holding an 8 is of course a possibility but the opportunity to gain 450 chips is well worth the risk.

Unarmed · #5 08-14-2005, 03:46 PM

Nice post big. The hand didn't feel right and you do a good job illustrating why.

- I don't raise more PF b/c I don't play AK/AQ aggressively after the flop. I'm a reg at the 109s and I don't want to vary my raise size by hand. Perhaps I shouldn't bother with this as people probably aren't paying a whole lot of attention.

- Turn is a weird spot. I'm not betting here, as it commits too much of my stack and puts me in a horrible position on the river.

- So I check. I'm really hoping Villain will check this through, I'll check the river to him and call his bluff. He bets 125 instead. Now, the odd times I do c-bet whiffed overs OOP I will C/R the turn a good percentage of the time, so I like to do it with a legit hand once in awhile. I don't want to see the river with a pot almost equal to my stack and be faced with a pretty large bet much of the time regardless of the card, so I put him in.

- Like you say though, its a bad bet. If he's drawing at this point he probably just takes a free card, so he either has something or absolutely nothing. I am way ahead or crushed, with the odd stupidly played diamond draw thrown in. I like your line or calling and checking the river to him so he can hang himself. I'm smashed both ways by JT or the straight but at least that way I can pick up his bluff. My line is my inexperience showing through I think... I just didn't want to see that river.

I'd like to hear what others have to say as well.
Freudian, your thoughts are what I was thinking. Its the far easier line, but I don't think its correct here.

bigt439 · #6 08-15-2005, 06:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Nice post big. The hand didn't feel right and you do a good job illustrating why.

- I don't raise more PF b/c I don't play AK/AQ aggressively after the flop. I'm a reg at the 109s and I don't want to vary my raise size by hand. Perhaps I shouldn't bother with this as people probably aren't paying a whole lot of attention.

- Turn is a weird spot. I'm not betting here, as it commits too much of my stack and puts me in a horrible position on the river.

- So I check. I'm really hoping Villain will check this through, I'll check the river to him and call his bluff. He bets 125 instead. Now, the odd times I do c-bet whiffed overs OOP I will C/R the turn a good percentage of the time, so I like to do it with a legit hand once in awhile. I don't want to see the river with a pot almost equal to my stack and be faced with a pretty large bet much of the time regardless of the card, so I put him in.

- Like you say though, its a bad bet. If he's drawing at this point he probably just takes a free card, so he either has something or absolutely nothing. I am way ahead or crushed, with the odd stupidly played diamond draw thrown in. I like your line or calling and checking the river to him so he can hang himself. I'm smashed both ways by JT or the straight but at least that way I can pick up his bluff. My line is my inexperience showing through I think... I just didn't want to see that river.

I'd like to hear what others have to say as well.
Freudian, your thoughts are what I was thinking. Its the far easier line, but I don't think its correct here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry I haven't replied sooner. I liked hearing how you applied my advice to your thought process. I think your original thinking makes sense, but like you say to freudian, it is the easier way to think about it, but probably not the correct way. Just because you are scared of cards coming off you can not just push, but must evealuate the reward of protecting your hand with the risk that comes with it.

The one thing I really disagree about in your reply is the amount of emphasis you place on being a regular and how people perceive you. I am a regular at the 109's as well and consider myself to take good notes. I can't imagine many people taking better notes than me; in fact I don't imagine many people taking meaningful notes at all. My point is that I would never notice something like the size of your raises in different position unless it was drastic. I have no problem consistently raising AA or KK different ways than other hands because I am positive this is not being noticed. There are too many variables (blind levels, position, etc.) and opponents who are just not astute enough for me to worry about this sort of thing.

By the way I think limping is better than raising to t45 in ep with aq and ak. You also worry about if people will notice continuation bets and such and I feel like you are just being paranoid. Most opponents at this game are just bad, and there are so few regulars, much less good regulars, to worry about them catching on to subtleties in your game. Obviously this is more of a general idea than advice on this hand, but I think it is very relevant.

freemoney · #7 08-15-2005, 06:12 PM

i think you know this hand was played pretty poorly.

microbet · #8 08-15-2005, 06:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I like your line or calling and checking the river to him so he can hang himself.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't specifically about this hand, and I haven't been playing or posting or reading much lately (working instead) so I don't know what the hell I'm talking about, but...

Is there a war going on in the forum between protecting your hand and giving your opponent a chance to bluff? If so, who's winning?

freemoney · #9 08-15-2005, 06:25 PM

im def on the let him bluff side probably too much

mosdef · #10 08-15-2005, 06:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i think you know this hand was played pretty poorly.

[/ QUOTE ]

care to explain? or is your thinking so many years ahead of us that we couldn't possibly understand?