Thin value river raise/stupid river raise?

[Inthacup]

This is a question for those who try to maximize thin value bets/raises.

Online 3 6 game.

I'm on the button w/ K [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 10 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] . 2 limpers to me, I limp(I usually raise here, but didn't feel like it this hand). SB folds, BB checks.

Flop comes: 4 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 10 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]

BB checks, EP checks, MP bets, I raise, BB folds, EP cold calls, MP calls

Turn: 8 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]

Checked around

River: 4 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]

EP checks, MP bets, I raise, EP cold calls, MP calls.

What do you think of my river raise and my turn check? What did cold caller have? Results posted later.

[nathanielt]

This will be my first response to a post other than my own, so bear with me

I don't like your turn check. If you figured you had the best hand on the flop, you should figure you still do on the turn when it's checked to you. It's doubtful anyone was drawing to an inside straight here and caught it. If you still have the best hand on the turn, why give him a free card and possibly a straight?

I might've raised the river like you did, but it depends on the player. I think he just had a couple overcards and, figuring you had the same, went ahead and bet. You showed weakness on the turn, and he probably thought he could bluff you out knowing that the 4 didn't help either of you.

Posting results?

[haakee]

I'd bet the turn. You're probably ahead and cold-caller would appear to be on a straight draw at this point. I think the river raise is fine. You may have induced a bluff or a thin value bet by checking on the turn (although he called your river raise, so he must not have been bluffing).

EP's cold call on the flop implies 65, 98, or T with a reasonable kicker that he had planned on check-raising. Cold call on the river probably eliminates 98. I put him on AT with a possibility of 65s, KT, or maybe QT.

[mobes]

I think the turn check is awful. I can't think of any reason to give a free card when you have top pair and a good kicker. And I don't understand the river raise afterwards, either you believe you have the best hand and you should be betting/raising or you should be calling. Please explain the check.

[Inthacup]

Results: This was a really weird hand. When EP cold called my flop raise, I had an overwhelming feeling that he had a set. I checked the turn to avoid the checkraise. The only other hand I think he would call 2 cold with is 89. But for some reason, I "knew" he had a set. I wasn't too worried about MP having a better hand than me, because I think he would have raised w/ A10 or any pair higher than 10 preflop.

When the EP checked the river, my thought that he had a set got thrown out the window. Since the river was a blank, I felt pretty confident about my hand. When EP cold called AGAIN, I didn't know what to think.

Showdown: MP shows A 4 unsuited for the rivered trips. The cold-calling EP had 77 for the flopped set and rivered full house. It's a great feeling when I'm the one raising when I have the worst hand. I'll leave it up to you guys to figure out what EP was thinking on the river. It still baffles me.

Mobes, I see that you say my turn check was awful. My explanation is that I was adjusting(several times) to the information presented to me by the other players. On the turn, I checked behind because of the way EP cold called. I raised the river because I figured that if EP did have a set, he would have bet out the river. Do you still think the turn check is terrible?

[Bob T.]

I would have bet the turn, I think that if you are going to check one street, bet the turn, and check the river. At least then, you aren't giving a free card. I think that the coldcaller might have had 98, or maybe A7, or maybe KT or something like that. It is hard to put someone who called all hand on a hand. I think that if you lost this hand, you likely lost to the overcaller who I think had to have at least AT to overcall on the river.

[Bob T.]

If you bet the turn, and get checkraised there, I think you let go of your hand, and lose one less bet. If you do indeed get called in two spots, then it really is tough, I think you would probably bet the river again, and then might have to make the decision whether or not to call a raise then.

[anatta]

You said you usually raise with KTo here. I almost always just call with KTo on the button vs 2 limpers.

On the flop, if the board were paired and you put cold-caller on trips I would agree, but opponents seem to call two cold with garbage at least as often as they are slowplaying. But what do I know...you were in the game, and knew your opponent, so good read.

I would still bet the turn, since if you are beat, might as well find out. Taking a free card does you no good vs. a set, but you can't give a free card with a pair of 10's. I am kinda tired, but it sounds like your plan was to fold to one bet on the river after checking the turn. I think the pot size and your check on the turn which encourages your opponents makes this a mistake.

[Ed Miller]

I don't care about the river raise... I think the turn check is horrible poker. Why are you giving a free card to everyone and his brother's overcards?

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

When I first read your post, I thought you checked behind on the turn to induce a bluff. To that my response would have been - only make this play heads-up.

If indeed you checked behind on the turn because you read EP for a set, then your biggest mistake wasn't checking the turn, it was not releasing your hand on the river. One of the biggest mistakes we all make is making the right read, and then not believing it.

EP played this hand like a typical LL player, waiting for the turn to push his set. MP just played like an idiot. I'll disagree with others here. You made a great play on the turn, then blew it on the river when you let your desire to win money get in the way of believing your read and playing your cards right.