If there are any MTT beginners, heres a lesson for you...............

[Pondy]

in why you shouldn't slow play a good hand pre flop......

p.s this is not a bad beat post. Just thought I'd post this for newbies. Already in my next tourney with a smile on my face !....

** Game ID 463109478 starting - 2005-08-18 15:18:53
** $25 NL Freezeout:Table 9 [Multi Table Hold 'em] (200.00|400.00 No Limit - MTT) Real Money

- thibax sitting in seat 1 with $5325.00
- baz1 sitting in seat 2 with $1902.50
- eagle81 sitting in seat 3 with $5272.00
- AK8 sitting in seat 4 with $14411.00
- tele sitting in seat 5 with $8782.50
- snutten sitting in seat 6 with $6090.00
- Pondy sitting in seat 7 with $10090.00
- LuckyCardMan sitting in seat 8 with $2280.00
- avrahams sitting in seat 9 with $5638.50
- PABL0_DIABL0 sitting in seat 10 with $4410.00 [Dealer]

thibax posted the small blind - $100.00
baz1 posted the big blind - $200.00

** Dealing card to Pondy: Ace of Diamonds, King of Diamonds

eagle81 folded
AK8 folded
tele folded
snutten called - $200.00
Pondy called - $200.00
LuckyCardMan folded
avrahams folded
PABL0_DIABL0 raised - $800.00
thibax folded
baz1 folded
snutten folded
Pondy called - $800.00


** Dealing the flop: 7 of Clubs, Queen of Spades, King of Hearts

Pondy bet - $1600.00
PABL0_DIABL0 went all-in - $3610.00
Pondy called - $3610.00
PABL0_DIABL0 shows: King of Spades, 7 of Spades


** Dealing the turn: 4 of Diamonds

** Dealing the river: 6 of Diamonds

PABL0_DIABL0 wins $9320.00 from the main pot

End of game 463109478

[cwsiggy]

I suppose but it looks like he would have called your standard raise of 400-800 anyway and then flopped ya dead??

[Pondy]

Then I would of been sooooo annoyed. At least this way in my mind the mistake was made by me, and I can be satisfied with that, if you know what i mean !!

[ansky451]

This post doesnt really make sense. Slow playing a monster preflop hand in the right cicumstance is very +EV. Limp calling with AK out of position--- is not a trap, it's just bad poker. You will miss the flop 2/3rds of the time, and then you have to check fold. I dont know why once this guy put in a raise you didnt reraise right away with all the dead money in there. But the way you did play it, I think a big check raise all in is needed on the flop, I see no merit in leading out.

[Pondy]

Fair point. It was bad play by me. If I had of check-raised him on the flop, do you think he would of folded the 2 pair ?

[Scooterdoo]

You're looking at the results and say you made a mistake. I don't think you can set a rule that says 'I will always raise with a big hand.' You need to add deception to your game and sometimes it's a good idea to disguise your hand. In this situation you were faced with a raiser and had every reason to believe you were facing a quality hand and you were likely to be heads-up if you called. It's a great situation to see the flop without announcing that you have AK or AA-JJ by re-raising. I see nothing wrong with this play. You got unlucky that you happened to be playing against a guy who was taking a shot at the pot with junk AND he hit the one flop that helps him and you. I really wouldn't worry about it and I certainly wouldn't categorize your play as bad because of the results here. To me, the main argument for raising is if you want to be certain to isolate the raiser, since the first two limpers might like the odds and call too. However, AK is still a drawing hand and when you hit your opponents often hit and you have them dominated, so if you're willing to gamble a bit, it's a good situation to just call.

[ansky451]

[ QUOTE ]
If I had of check-raised him on the flop, do you think he would of folded the 2 pair ?

[/ QUOTE ]

No but you get money from a bluff / continuation bet if he missed, or if he has an underpair.

[ansky451]

[ QUOTE ]
You're looking at the results and say you made a mistake. I don't think you can set a rule that says 'I will always raise with a big hand.' You need to add deception to your game and sometimes it's a good idea to disguise your hand. In this situation you were faced with a raiser and had every reason to believe you were facing a quality hand and you were likely to be heads-up if you called. It's a great situation to see the flop without announcing that you have AK or AA-JJ by re-raising. I see nothing wrong with this play. You got unlucky that you happened to be playing against a guy who was taking a shot at the pot with junk AND he hit the one flop that helps him and you. I really wouldn't worry about it and I certainly wouldn't categorize your play as bad because of the results here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that you have to be deceptive sometimes, but i have a few issues with your arguement.

1) This is a 25 dollar tournament, deceptiveness loses value the lower the buy in. In a 1000 dollar buy in live tournament, being deceptive has a lot of merit, but where the players are mostly donkeys, straight foward play is best usually.

2) Limp/calling AK has vey little value in itself-- deceptive or not. The only situation where it may be very deceptive, is if your opponent has something like AQ and flops an ace, you get it all in and he calls thinking "he would have raised me with AK preflop." But even there, most people dont fold top pair in a 25 dollar tournament to heavy action, so you dont need deceptiveness there.

3) Deceptive value is always important, but so is position, and you dont want to be playing a big pot out of position to a preflop raiser with what is essentially a drawing hand. I think a reraise preflop is treated like a semi bluff, and hopefully you get to take the pot down right there.

[pooh74]

Soneone else said this too, but AK is not a monster PF!! once you've limped it, it is like any other unpaired hand and should be played accordingly. Limping KK here hoping for a raise behind can be reraised all-in! But AK still needs to see a flop and it becomes difficult to put villains on hands when you are not the initial agressor.

[Dave D]

[ QUOTE ]
You're looking at the results and say you made a mistake. I don't think you can set a rule that says 'I will always raise with a big hand.' You need to add deception to your game and sometimes it's a good idea to disguise your hand. In this situation you were faced with a raiser and had every reason to believe you were facing a quality hand and you were likely to be heads-up if you called. It's a great situation to see the flop without announcing that you have AK or AA-JJ by re-raising. I see nothing wrong with this play. You got unlucky that you happened to be playing against a guy who was taking a shot at the pot with junk AND he hit the one flop that helps him and you. I really wouldn't worry about it and I certainly wouldn't categorize your play as bad because of the results here. To me, the main argument for raising is if you want to be certain to isolate the raiser, since the first two limpers might like the odds and call too. However, AK is still a drawing hand and when you hit your opponents often hit and you have them dominated, so if you're willing to gamble a bit, it's a good situation to just call.

[/ QUOTE ]

OP played this hand exactly wrong. YOU are looking at results. When the *first* action comes to OP, all he knows is he is EP and there is already 1 limper, he has no idea if it's going to be raised behind him or not. OP should have made it 4x the blind to go at this point.

But OP chose to call. Then someone raised. At this point, with all that dead money out there, OP should have pushed. I would have called with AA, KK, QQ, not AKs. Like Ansky said, you will miss your flop 2/3 of the time. Also, you have to consider stack sizes. Villian isn't getting away from this hand if he sees a flop (probably), hero has to get all his money in with probably the best hand. Hero would be very happy even if villian folded right here with all that dead money in the pot.

On the flop hero should have check/raised all in. Like Ansky said, you win money from the continuation bet if villian folds to the all in, and you probably are in good shape if he calls.

Ansky is exactly right in what he says.