VR wins a stack with a loose flop call, lets debate :)

[vulturesrow]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter

MP1 ($31.95)
MP2 ($19.75)
MP3 ($32.20)
Hero ($24.25)
Button ($73)
SB ($24.15)
BB ($123.48)
UTG ($22.87)
UTG+1 ($15.87)
UTG+2 ($30.23)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
<font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB (poster) calls $0.90, BB calls $0.75.

This is a standard raise for me here.

Flop: ($3) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $2</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $4</font>, BB folds, Hero calls $2.

This check minraise screams big K here, probably AK or KQ.

Turn: ($11) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $5</font>, Hero calls $19.25 (All-In), SB calls $14.15 (All-In).

If my read is correct (and I am fairly certain it is), SB will call my push, so I push. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

River: ($49.40) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $49.40

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
SB has Ad Ks (two pair, kings and eights).
Hero has 8c As (three of a kind, eights).
Outcome: Hero wins $49.40. </font>


So here is my question for debate. Given the range of hands I put my opponent on (basically a King with a pretty good kicker) was my flop call justified? I am drawing to 3-6 outs
but if the opponent has the hand I am putting him on, he is quite likely playing for his stack here. Also if a spade hits the turn I have a pretty good redraw as well. Given that I am pretty confident in my read here and thus I am not putting any more money in the pot unless I hit an 8 or I hit a spade and can continue to draw with proper odds (which may include implied odds of course).

math, schmath, you're a lag who should be shot at dawn. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[vulturesrow]

But Im a thinking LAG. Be afraid, be very afraid. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] Incidentally, you get the dice icon in my database using excessions NL autorate rules. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
But Im a thinking LAG. Be afraid, be very afraid. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] Incidentally, you get the dice icon in my database using excessions NL autorate rules. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

You're solid, I know it well. I actually liked your call of the minraise--I'm seeing them used as bluffs a fair amount by folks who don't want to back their bluffs with much.

I don't know what the dice mean, but if it's the same as on PT, I don't think that's good. But, then, we sorta knew that, huh? PT has me with a different symbol is all I am willing to say in public.

[vulturesrow]

The dice using excession's autorate rules is slightly loose aggressive, which is far from bad. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Do a search in this forum for autorate and import his rules. They are very good.

[Macquarie]

Well, I'm trying to be tight-aggressive, and so predictably I don't think I like this. You're A outs are not good for playing a big hand, so really you have only the two eights as clean outs. Backdoor flush adds a tiny bit of value, but you're gonna get charged again on the turn if you want to chase the flush, and you'll only just get the correct implied odds to do it. Added to all this, you can't guarantee stacking him if a scary spade comes on the turn, and particularly so if the board finished as a four-flush!

And of course you could already be drawing dead to a set.

I'd say this is a fold, you've no where near the implied odds to chase your outs.

[Allinlife]

the loose flopcall could easily have costed your self a stack.

VR says he put the guy on AK or KQ from the minraise, and, since he did, prudence does dictate a fold.

I'm pretty sure I would not have put the guy on one of those hands with the minraise, so VR made a better read than I would have and then caught a boon from the poker gods.

[vulturesrow]

I dont think so. Im not even counting Ace outs. Their are two specific turns I am looking for. A spade or an 8. If its a spade then I have to make a decision, which is going to be largely predicated on what he does. I very much doubt I am losing half my stack on this hand.

[async]

It really just depends on the player. A chance to get someone's whole stack with a weird hand is worth considering the implied odds a bit. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]