Deranged + 88 = Big Chump

[W. Deranged]

Gettin' some love from the 10/20 with a half kill...

10 players doin' their thing...

Deranged finds himself with perhaps his favorite hand, 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], in UTG +1.

This table is absolutely nuts and the game is playing like a straight 15/30, though the hand in question is played at 10/20. I've played with almost everyone at the table before and have a good handle on almost all of them. The cast of characters for the hand in question:

The SB is the tightest player at the table (your truly included... but I play bad), but is quite tight weak. Quite friendly and likes to talk about hands quite a bit, but probably slept with Lee Jones under his pillow as a kid because he's playing tight weak like nobody's business. Criticized an opponents play for calling the turn with 55 on a 764 flush draw board claiming that it was pretty risky to do so given that "there are no implied odds and the flush draw is there." So he can think a little just not well.

EP2 is a long-haired youngin' who I've played with a bunch. Total lag pre-flop, playing probably 80% of hands and raising damn near 20%. He is quite aggressive and quite obnovious, often criticizing others play. He becomes much better on the big bet streets and is capable of making some decent folds.

Hijack is a super-passive older lady who seems to be thoroughly shocked by raising in all forms.

CO is a classic mid-stakes player. He's generally tight weak but cold-calls way too much pre-flop. Seems to be moderately aggressive on the early streets but tightens up way too much on the big bet streets, chronically folding too much and failing to extract sufficient value on his good hands.

Button is a player I know quite well, who is generally laggy and quite erratic on several streets. She is a kind of odd super-reader, who will often call down with very, very weak hands but also folds winners visibly; bluffs way too much. Actually plays the flop reasonably well.

UTG folds, Deranged raises, EP2 cold-calls, Hijack cold-calls, CO cold-calls, button cold-calls, SB calls, BB calls.

7 to the flop for 14 SB.

Flop: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

SB bets, 1 fold, Deranged raises, EP2 calls, Hijack calls, CO three-bets , button folds, SB calls, Deranged calls, EP2 calls, Hijack calls.

Five to the turn for 29 SB.

Turn: Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB bets , Deranged ...

1. What's my turn line?
2. Discuss the flop line. There is an obvious other possibility for a play here, but I think given the players involved it may well not have been a possibility. I'm interested what others think.
3. I'd love to here guesses on what all of the various villains were holding. Two of them, who will go nameless, ended up exposing there hands, and I was thoroughly shocked by their holdings.

Oh yeah and you can talk about pre-flop a whole bunch too...

[baronzeus]

These are some crazy good reads you have.

I 4bet the flop.

I fold the turn if I am confident about my read.. SB's bet usually means "I have a 3 or a queen" from someone who is that weak tight.

If I am not very confident about my read, or could see SB do this with bullshit, I raise.


But another thing to note is you have really good odds to call here if you think the 3 to act behind you will call as well.

[BWebb]

[ QUOTE ]

1. What's my turn line?

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise, I don't really see another option.
-You might have the best hand
-You might fold out a better hand, such as 99-JJ
-You can knock out those behind with overs to your 88 if you are still good.
-The pot is huge, so you aren't folding.
-Calling sucks

[ QUOTE ]

2. Discuss the flop line. There is an obvious other possibility for a play here, but I think given the players involved it may well not have been a possibility. I'm interested what others think.


[/ QUOTE ]
I actually like the raise. I know it seems like a time to wait until the turn in a big pot, but with a mid pocket pair, any overcard you can fold greatly improves your hand. If they knew you had 88, they would be getting good odds to call with any two over. However, they don't know that's what you have, so there a good chance hands like KJ and Q-10 will fold this flop.
[ QUOTE ]

3. I'd love to here guesses on what all of the various villains were holding. Two of them, who will go nameless, ended up exposing there hands, and I was thoroughly shocked by their holdings.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to guess the two exposed hands were 10-10 and J-J that they folded to your turn raise.

[ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah and you can talk about pre-flop a whole bunch too...

[/ QUOTE ]

If that is how the table was playing, a limp is clearly in order. However, big pots are more fun.

[brettbrettr]

I play this the same *if* you folded the turn. Given SB's weak-tightishness his turn bet is very disconcerting.

Also, I think given the weak-tightishness of both the CO and SB you maybe could possibly maybe make an argument for capping the flop, if only b/c it will really help you define things later on. I'm not saying cap for info--its a by product of possibly capping with the best hand.

[sthief09]

CO's range of hands right now are JJ-77. you beat 77. however, you can blow him off any of these hands with a raise if he's as typical as you say. it's very possible that the old lady and the laggy guy have a 3 but you're good a decent amount of the tiem here and the pot is 16 bets now.

but now the question is what is the SB betting and can he fold it. I gotta think he has trips here. why would he bet, call 2, then bet again. he might even be full with 66. QQ also makes lots of sense from him, or AA/KK if eh wouldn't 3-bet those, but against someone like that, I'd suspect he'd 3-bet those but possibly not QQ.

either way I think you're beat way too often to fold. the SB alone scares me enough to fold

you said to guess, so I have the SB on QQ and the CO on JJ/TT

[molawn2mo]

Preflop raise is fine

Flop is fine. As to another very obvious line, well, if you mean just call and wait for an innocuous turn to raise, then me no likey. As played, ep might have 3 bet facing the 2 passives with calling 3 cold. But twas not to be. Trying to fold out any hand now is worth it because you can stand to call a 3 bet easily enough.

I hope that you folded the turn cause it may get real expensive to hit your 2 outer.

Difficult to card read without knowing the turn action but the ultra tight and presumably weak SB has at least a 6, maybe a 3 (hoping to murderize the field on the turn should he be raised) or 77/88/99/TT/JJ/QQ.

having at least one 6, 20%
having at least one 3, 10%
77-QQ, 70%

[odellthurman]

Referring to oneself in the Third Person + Posting it on an internet message board = Lame

[SeaEagle]

Interesting hand.

I think you played the first two streets perfectly. You must raise the flop to face the field with two bets; waiting for the turn is too dangerous with half the deck being scare cards. Capping the flop doesn't make sense because you don't have enough equity to bet for value and you're not knocking anyone out.

The turn is tricky. I think you're behind virtually all the time here based on the way you described sb and co. If you think you won't get raised (and the way you describe co this seems probable) then you have the odds to call a turn bet. I don't think raising makes sense because you would need a pretty serious parlay to win this hand unimproved.
I think I'd call the turn and if it came back to me for one more I'd call again and curse myself for not reading my opponents correctly.

Depending on the action between now and the river, I may end up calling one on the river in some situtations as well.

FWIW, I think sb probably has a hand, say, A3s or maybe TT. CO could have anything. Most likely overcards and trying for a free card. I'll not even hazard a guess at the other two hands.

[W. Deranged]

But in Third Person,
Is how D. posts on the board.
He is very lame.

I wish to institute a rule that all no content responses to threads made by newbs that are primarily insulting in nature MUST be posted in haiku format. (Moderators agree?)

[SeaEagle]

I am not a newb.
But the haiku format rules.
Put it in the faq.